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Ligaments - Keeping it all together for windsurfing
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Brian_S



Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 239
Location: SE Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:14 pm    Post subject: Why not Jello Reply with quote

There was an article in Outside magazine that referenced a couple small studies on ligament health and healing:
https://www.outsideonline.com/2392880/gelatin-injury-prevention-recovery

Having gone through a bicep rupture and a high tibial osteotomy in 2018-2019, I've been doing the jello thing. Seems like a little Jello everyday can't hurt.

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justall



Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 437

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rigitrite, Mac, dllee, Brian_S,

Thanks for posting your experience/thoughts/references on gluclosamin/gelatin. I am reading up on these.

Yeah, most of the science still points to use/exercise to keep ligaments healthy and to promote repair. But, it seems logical there may be things we eat, or are missing in our diet, that could help the repairs along or delay general degradation. As you all may have found/see. I might write to the UC Davis lab to see where they are with follow-up research.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20317

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to take so long. Iíve had at least 17 things more urgent than this, and have been chipping away at it since you posted.

Studied? Not ligaments per se, but Iíve picked up lots of bits and pieces from many trusted sources. This stuff is important to me, especially since medical issues have degraded my physical abilities very dramatically in just the past ear or two.

First, as Lee says, we canít strengthen ligaments. Theyíre just pieces of very strong fiber ďinstalledĒ to maintain proper proximity among the various bones they connect, from your toes to your skull. We CAN, however, protect and preserve them for a long time by reducing the stresses on them by any of several means, most notably strengthening the muscles that splint our joints (except at full extension or full flex, where the loads on a jointís ligaments spike if pushed any further and muscles can't do much to help them).

With our most obvious joints, including feet, ankles, knees, hips, core, spine, neck, shoulders, elbows, and hands, we can support the ligaments with strong muscles. The obvious implication there is to get our butts to a gym for some serious whole body strength-building exercises. Although most of them can be done at home, the gym provides many more options and freedom from @!%&!$% telemarketers.

The bible on extremely efficient, injury-free, very effective, strength building and aerobic/anaerobic development, IMO, is ďBody by ScienceĒ by Doug McGuff. I consider it a must-read for anyone of any age who wants to get much stronger and fitter without injuries in 5% of the time most regular gym goers spend at it. He has MANY videos online, where youíll also find many reviews of his Superslow protocol. One such review is at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjc_DpK9CI4
Root around the internet and you may find McGuffís video of a moose doing a single two-minute chin-up for the hell of it, and another moose going through McGuffís Big 5, 12 minute, whole-body workout. He falls to the floor trying to find more oxygen after his last exercise, effectively unable or unwilling to walk for a moment. I only FEEL that worked, but I try my best and often DO after my lunges or leg presses. Iíve asked several of our gym trainers about this form of training, and their answers have been consistent: itís a great workout, but almost nobodyís willing to work out that hard. I also donít see anyone else doing serious HIIT, either, in the big gym I use.

Jeez, folks, itís just 12 minutes 2 or 3 times each MONTH; how difficult is that? (Arnold tried it, refused to do it again, and lost the world championship to a guy who DID it.)

My kinesiologist uses a version of it, and set a U.S. record in the bench press with a torn pec ... THE muscle that drives the bench press. He had two tries left, and broke his own record minutes later. He is often challenged by other competitive bodybuilders to match their feats because he uses (relatively) light weights. He easily bests them at their own sloppy, inertia-driven, dangerous, rapid lifts, then counter-challenges them to try his lighter-weight, slowww technique. When they do, they get angry and/or walk away humbled. (As a prison corrections officer, his very life often depends on his massive strength.)

Rather than recite the book here, I very strongly recommend you read it. Before reading it, I busted my ass in NON-STOP strength and HIIT circuit training (none of this standing around yakking and counting 30 or 60 seconds between sets) for 4 to 6 hours three days a week. Iím very lucky I didnít get overtrained, which can athletically cripple even Olympic athletes for years.

Iíve been laughed at in the gym due to how hard I heave for air and struggle to maintain proper form while barely moving when lifting. I laugh with them (because it does look a bit silly) and remind them that the only lift that counts is the one we absolutely and literally Can. Not. Complete. despite trying as hard as possible; the others are just the warmup. Thatís why warmup time is not necessary w/Superslow lifting. We just walk in there, start lifting at our operational weight level, lift to concentric and eccentric failure, change exercises, and in about 12 minutes weíre done Ö in more ways than one Ö with a whole body strength workout with a zero injury rate (compared to many thousands of injuries Ömany of them to tendons and ligaments Ö annually with heavy weights and the usual sloppy technique.) Slow lifting is also highly protective of tendons, as it eliminates the inertial spikes that rapid lifting produces.

If itís good enough for many pro and collegiate football teams, itís good enough for you and me. This workout is so strenuous that I have to wait a week before doing a rapid-fire, gut-busting HIIT circuit for an hour, then another week before doing another Superslow routine. Sooner and I lose ground. Longer, and I gain strength.

Isolated single-joint strength exercises are for targeted bodybuilding (i.e., body sculpting), not functionality. How often do we see football linemen do isolated bicep curls in a game? Instead of such isolated exercises as bicep or hamstring curls, focus on multi-joint exercises that include biceps and hams, such as chest pulls and lunges, respectively. Seated is fine, but I do them standing up with cables so Iím working my whole body from hands to feet. (Iíll use machines once in a great while to measure my progress objectively and repeatably.)

Stretching is mostly for gymnasts and ballet dancers who need excess mobility (at significant risk of injury) to do their jobs, and for injury rehab. It clearly lessens our explosive power, very important for many freestyle moves. For the rest of us, excess range/mobility places unnecessary load on our ligaments. (If anyone disagrees, please direct your counterarguments to the many researchers including the Philadelphia 76er and Ballet physician and a LOT of other researchers Iíve cited here before.)

Beyond exerting desired forces upon conscious demand, our muscles splint our joints (i.e., and thus our ligaments) reactively and often subconsciously. Sensors in our joints recognize when present or imminent forces threaten a jointís integrity (i.e., they predict a ligament or cartilage failure if we keep doing what weíre doing) and can inhibit commands to perform some movement. The computer that issues this command is in our spine, to avoid wasting time going all the way to the brain and back in fast-moving situations. It has limits, of course, especially when external forces are involved like my landing on an extended leg Ö a very popular way to snap an ACL.

As for diet ... ďcertainĒ fruits depends a great deal on your overall way of eating. I (and a lot of world champs and pro athletes) choose keto as my way of eating, which means extremely low (almost no; we donít need to eat ANY) carbs, which means very little fruit beyond a few berries. Thatís OK; we donít need much in the way of fruit, as antioxidants appear to be highly overrated. As for potassium in bananas, weíd have to almost live on bananas to get our daily potassium needs from them; many common foods contain more potassium.

Consider keto eating and the scores of books on it. It is not a fad, and offers many benefits in addition to better performance in most sports. One of its many advantages it the elimination of bonking ... hitting the wall in any long event from the Iron Man to a 4-5-hour WSing session. (One personal example is that despite consuming nothing but meds and electrolyte fluids for several days now for reasons you don't want to hear about, I've felt fine and am ready to go sailing today. This is the healthy way to crank out lots of human growth hormone.)

I donít know much about collagen supps. I read just enough about them to add them to my diet recently, for what thatís worth. We do need extra protein on and immediately following workout or windy days.

As for slowing down with age, itís not speed that matters; itís that sudden stop at the end. Since my knee exploded from operator error plus age a few years ago, I donít jump as high or as often, and I pay a lot more attention to my landings. I never have (intentionally) gotten my dirt bikes, snowmobiles, skis, or WSers upside down, and I consider footsteps, foot pegs, and bindings as important factors in my safety, fun, and longevity. Anyone whoís smart enough and old enough to start thinking about extending their athletic ability is likely to still be playing hard long after the ďNo FearĒ crowd is crippled. Again, user preference.

And, oh, yes Ö donít grow old. That plays hell with ligaments as they slowly turn to mush or, more likely, brittle cold taffy. Either of those may fail someday with minimal stress. Old muscles, tendons, and ligaments do need warmup before demanding exercise, and itís not going to hurt our other body parts. In power production, as is required for many WSing tricks, sprints, and other sports movements, loose (stretched) muscles cost us explosiveness.

As for your latest comment Ö you might start with Pubmed. It's the source virtually every doctor in the world uses to access the world's body of peer reviewed medical research, and it has a great search engine. For example, there's
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5585011/ .
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Ugly_Bird



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rigitrite wrote:
I think I pay about $28 for a container of 500 pills, .


What make/grade etc are you using? Thank you!
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justall



Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 437

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks, Iso.

Hah, certainly was no obligation for you to respond, but I indeed was interested in your opinion here.

Oh, I've read the McGuff book ... a part reason for the earlier DM. I like to mix up workouts. Without question, super-slow is the most painful, requiring the most will-power of the types I've tried ... difficult to maintain in my basement gym, since no one is watching.

On the muscles as splints, I guess that could be the source of my current injury. I wasn't doing anything dramatic, just my foot slid off the board resulting in a quick twist of the knee as my foot went over the rail. I was pretty relaxed at the time, so I guess that meant the muscles around the knee were somewhat off-duty, resulting in a next-man-up call to the MCL, which did the best it could but wasn't quite up for the major leagues. Might argue for keeping things tight, less-relaxed while cruising ... hmmm.

I'll check out the diet thoughts and work on the "don't grow old" challenge, ha.

Will come back and post as I digest further and learn more.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20317

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justall wrote:
my foot slid off the board resulting in a quick twist of the knee as my foot went over the rail. I was pretty relaxed at the time, so I guess that meant the muscles around the knee were somewhat off-duty, resulting in a next-man-up call to the MCL, which did the best it could but wasn't quite up for the major leagues. Might argue for keeping things tight, less-relaxed while cruising


That, or prevent the slipping. It threatens many painful and sometimes season-ending injuries, and is the end of that jibe. You know the answer to that: better traction, on our boards or our feet.
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1272

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justall wrote:
Many thanks, Iso.

Hah, certainly was no obligation for you to respond, but I indeed was interested in your opinion here.

Oh, I've read the McGuff book ... a part reason for the earlier DM. I like to mix up workouts. Without question, super-slow is the most painful, requiring the most will-power of the types I've tried ... difficult to maintain in my basement gym, since no one is watching.

...

I'll check out the diet thoughts and work on the "don't grow old" challenge, ha.

Will come back and post as I digest further and learn more.


Just be aware that all the claims that you can read on the web-of-a-million -lies about vitamines, diets and type of exercise are based on ... the extent of promotion behind them. Most claims are based on scant or non-existent evidence, and they are regularly dismissed when some serious science takes a look.

In particular when it comes to vitamins (an unregulated multi-billion industry) there is really none that has demonstrated a clear health benefit in controlled trials (maybe D or B12). This includes glucosamine https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/glucosamine-and-chondroitin-for-osteoarthritis

Eat a balanced diet, exercise regularly but with no excess, pick up a vitamin here and there (it might help as a placebo), and you'll be fine ... although unfortunately no matter what you do you will age ...
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1253

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dvCali wrote:
In particular when it comes to vitamins (an unregulated multi-billion industry) there is really none that has demonstrated a clear health benefit in controlled trials (maybe D or B12). This includes glucosamine https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/glucosamine-and-chondroitin-for-osteoarthritis

While I share your general sentiment that there is more marketing success than true benefit, I think you are overstating your case. Sometimes, it helps to look at the original research articles to get a better idea.

For example, one study on glucosamine and chondroitin saw the following improvements:
Placebo: 60.1%
Glucosamine and chondroitin: 66.7% (P=0.09)
Celecoxib: 70% (P=0.008)

This particular study was clearly limited by (a) a strong placebo effect, and (b) the limited size. The net effect of Celecoxib was about 50% larger than that of glucosamine and chondroitin, but the P-value was more than 10-fold lower; this is a result of the study size. The conclusion of "no effect" is based on the standard P cutoff of 0.05. In all likelihood, simply repeating the study with a larger group would have dropped the P-value for G&C to below 0.05, and come to the exact opposite conclusion. Similarly, extending the study to cover a longer time frame could have resulted in a lower placebo effect, which would have made the G&C effect statistically significant.

For basically all vitamins, there is no doubt that not getting enough has negative health consequences. For many vitamins, most people have adequate levels, but that is very different for vitamin D. A large percentage of the population can be vitamin D deficient, especially in winter. The link between low vitamin D levels and a higher rate of respiratory infections and overall mortality is clearly established. A meta-analysis of clinical trials showed that vitamin D supplementation can reduce the risk of respiratory infection my more than 3-fold for those who have very low vitamin D levels (< 25 nmol/l; OR = 0.3). That's rather relevant right now for any windsurfers who stop windsurfing as it gets colder.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10125

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While some folks can get carried away with supplements and vitamins and spend a ton of money, I think that there is some merit in taking vitamin D3, B complex and a simple multi-vitamin tablet. I take one D3 and a B complex tablet in the morning, and one multi-vitamin tablet before going to bed.

Years ago, I seemed to be always on the borderline of getting a cold, and it didn't take much to get one, particularly if I exercised and pushed it a bit. My younger brother recommended taking a multi-vitamin a day, and upon doing that regularly, my susceptibility to colds totally vanished. When something readily works for you, it's tough argue against it.

The key is to keep it simple, avoid overdoing it, and not to spend a fortune. I pick up all three at Trader Joe's for peanuts.
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rigitrite



Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 515
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugly_Bird wrote:
rigitrite wrote:
I think I pay about $28 for a container of 500 pills, .


What make/grade etc are you using? Thank you!


I buy the HyVee store brand "Health Market": 400 pills, 1000mg each for $28.
HyVee is one of the grocery store chains common to our area of the mid-west.

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