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prove me wrong.... coronavirus is not airborne
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16254
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT--I have a beard, so a face mask only is about a 40% reduction in my risk. Much better to have distance.

There's still a lot we don't know. Scientists are tracking the origin of US breakouts using virus DNA. For California, the earliest cases seemed to come from China, but later cases came from all over. "...repeated inroductions from New York and elsewhere in the U.S. ", source attributed to the University of Washington.

I read this in one of our local newspapers, and reprinted here on a medical site:

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-coronavirus-covid-deadlier-thought.html

Several things stand out. "COVID19 is a pretty severe disease"...Dr. Heng Duong.

"...figures for the US show a [death rate] around 6% and WHO's figures for Europe indicate a rate of 9%"

SARS had a death rate of 10%, but wasn't nearly as contagious as the novel coronavirus. We don't know now, and probably will never know the actual infection rates and thus the death rate because of under sampling. But on the other side of the ledger, there are certainly many people who have died of COVID that were never tested.

One of the most interesting things reported in this article is on the 1918-19 influenza pandemic, which killed as many as 50 million globally and 675,000 in the US, and is generally estimated to have a case fatality rate of more than 2.5%. As you note, social distancing--quarantining at the time--was the most effective response. Where it didn't last, the rebound was worse.

It would not surprise me if we're headed to 300,000 deaths in this country. We know more about spread of viruses, and have a much better medical system, despite its flaws. But this virus is very challenging because of the long gestation and the number of people without symptoms. And our response has been terrible at the national level and mixed at the state and local level.

I wear a mask in public not because I am confident that it will protect me, but to signal I am committed to doing my part not to spread the disease, and to sacrifices for the common good. Once, during the great war (once we overcame objections from the America firsters and joined your country) we were capable of making sacrifices for the common good. Without whining as much.

Stay healthy.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Dene. What I take from your quoted articles is that the main method of spreading the virus from infected to non infected is

a) Actual droplets coughed or blown into the face, and NOT proven to be the invisible cloud of minute virus particles wafting through the air.

b) Touching contaminated surfaces or items handled by a carrier of the virus.

The best precautions then must be-

a) Wash or disinfect all items such as hands, clothes, and surfaces you have to handle. (e.g. plastic food coverings which will have been through multiple hands.)

c) Social distancing to avoid those droplets.

Oddly, I haven't been wearing a mask to shop because you have to breathe in and if it was airborne you couldn't filter it out., so I didn't think it would have helped. Also, when I shop (once a week, supermarket) I wear a set of clothes which I then leave standing till the week after.

If it really is true that air spreading is not the force it is claimed to be, it goes a long way to explaining how all who are in closed spaces with carriers are not smitten.

Thank you for posting.


*I have a change of cloths in the car at all times. When i get home same I change the cloths and shower. I wash my hands before leaving the car and have a spray bottle of bleach solution to wash the door handle down and do this every time i get out or enter the car. I do not touch a surface of the interior of the car till my hands are cleaned and keys cleaned again.

* I shop at 7am right when sams opens and in general there are 3-4 of us in the store. I carry home made wipes with me that are in a baggie with alcohol in them(generally baby wipes saturated in alcohol), I have a towel of alcohol in my hands the entire time I shop refreshing it every once in a while.

* I get 90% of my food delivered and let it sit for a few days if can be warm to a week if it is a cold item. I wash down all my fruits and veggies right when they are delivered.

*I use only my credit card and have my self made alcohol wipe in my hands when removing the card and putting it back wiping it down. If I have to sign electronically or by pen I hold in my alcohol wipe and clean my hand again.

* When I get my cart back from the checkout person i wipe it down again and did so before entering even if they did. I find with the wipe in my hand i do not mess up really at all. Same with putting the items in my car because the cash register person touched something so I use my wipe in my hand to grab everything and again wash my hand when everything is in the car. I am buying in advance of a about 2-3 weeks so things that do not need refrigeration will have a 3 day quarantine in the car.

*I have three masks in my car though overkill as I do not go out but every 2 weeks or 3 weeks. But rotation on masks is important.

*I keep hydrogen peroxide in mouthwash in the car to just in case I have to gargle because someone coughed at me. Better safe than sorry.

*I do not let the kids in the front seat of the car, and they must wear masks. car window open. And sadly can not hug them and they have to stay on the other side of my property. when we eat together i bring my own plates and silverware and sit other end of the table up wind. If no wind I turn on a fan behind me. I wash the table and chair down with a bleach spray before I sit when going to their side of the property.

And lastly GT your welcome.

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Last edited by real-human on Thu May 14, 2020 10:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/experiment-shows-human-speech-generates-droplets-that-linger-in-the-air-for-more-than-8-minutes/2020/05/13/7f293ba2-9557-11ea-82b4-c8db161ff6e5_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most


Thanks again for supporting my point with a link. from your article one of the not involved researchers said:

Quote:
Benjamin Neuman, a virologist at Texas A&M University-Texarkana who was not involved in the research.

“This study doesn’t directly test whether the virus can be transmitted by talking


Here is my point... Too date not one study has shown what concentration of the virus or basically any can cause illness. As this expert tells the world so eloquently.. And the china study came to the conclusion it is not airborne infection.

Quote:
Quotable: Dr. Michael Osterholm, at the University of Minnesota, said he had no doubt that the six-foot distance would clearly “reduce the number of droplets you come in contact with.” But, he added: “The question is what does it take for you to get infected? And that I think is the trillion-dollar question.


I add that if you take airborne samples of regular air and AC units you would be horrified to see what is in all of them. It is the issue of what concentration is needed to actually cause illness. And have no doubt if a sick person does cough right in your face you will have large enough and strong enough droplets to harm you.

similar to working in a radioactive or contaminated environment we can calculate how many hours before you have inhaled critical amounts of radiation to hit a certain threshold that scientists said is harmful. For this virus we just do not have that trillion dollar answer. and to me the office example where they worked for days and the people sitting right next to and across from did not get sick. Same with the 4 hour bus ride if it was airborne we would have a entire bus sick.

We need foot or infrared activated handwashing stations all over.

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real-human



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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK I have a Pet Peeve,,,,,

I am so disappointed that they have not done any testing on how long the virus lasts on a pet if someone pets the animal and the next person does. To me a relatively obvious and simple test. Just start with some pet hair initially.

This is my greatest worry, i have a dog that loves people and people love to pet her. No studies to date, the same lab that did the cardboard, stainless, copper, plastic should be doing this. From what I read they are one of the few labs capable of testing properly.

luckily she likes to sit in the sun a lot during the day and UV is fast acting on this virus.

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Transmission is MUCH faster/more likely indoors, as posted here a couple of weeks ago and based on over a century of observation and specific research right up through now. Primary reason is that the virus's half life drops ~99.5%, from several hours to about a minute outdoors on a clear day.

Masks, even properly worn N95s, mostly protect others from the wearer, not vice versa. Cloth masks are something like 80% less effective.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Transmission is MUCH faster/more likely indoors, as posted here a couple of weeks ago and based on over a century of observation and specific research right up through now. Primary reason is that the virus's half life drops ~99.5%, from several hours to about a minute outdoors on a clear day.

Masks, even properly worn N95s, mostly protect others from the wearer, not vice versa. Cloth masks are something like 80% less effective.


while probably true, don't forget we just had stay at home (indoors by a higher percentage of time) and the transmission rates dropped.

as i have read when schools close there is a 30% drop. And I think it was 80-90 percent of the transmission is in a household. so the worst cycle is parent gets it from co-worker, he goes home and kid(s) get it and kids go to school, and now many kids get it, they go home and next parent(s) take it to work(s) and cycle repeats.

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real-human



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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is another one with what I call conflicting diagnosis. We know it does not get passed on on airplanes as they note because we would have so many cases. But they diametrically state it is airborne. I call it you can not have it both ways. It is another one that is contact.

again by making the factual claim you do not get it on a plane or mass transportation they are supporting my contact is the issue and issuance of transmission. again keyboards mice door handles faucet handles all have been tested to have the largest concentrations of bacteria. (note dish /soap sponges too.)

https://www.iamat.org/country/ecuador/risk/tuberculosis

Quote:
Tuberculosis (TB) is an airborne bacterial infection caused by Mycobacterium tuberculosis. TB can be acquired by breathing contaminated air droplets coughed or sneezed by a person nearby who has active Tuberculosis. Humans can also get ill with TB by ingesting unpasteurized milk products contaminated with Mycobacterium bovis, also known as Bovine Tuberculosis. The most common form of the infection is pulmonary TB which affects the lungs. In some cases, the bacteria can also attack the lymphatic system, central nervous system, urogenital area, joints, and bones.

Risk
Mycobacterium tuberculosis is present worldwide and typically spreads in cramped, overcrowded conditions. There is no evidence that pulmonary TB is more easily transmitted in airplanes or other forms of public transportation. Long-term travellers, those with a weakened immune system or visiting friends and relatives (VFR travellers) in areas where Tuberculosis is endemic are at risk. Humanitarian and healthcare personnel working in communities with active TB are also at increased risk. Persons with active TB should not travel.

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real-human



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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is one of the best examples...

here is another example a hospital reduced infections by 36% by using a coating for weeks that killed viruses and bacteria.

and look at the data of the door.

https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/continuously-active-surface-disinfectants-may-provide-additional-barrier-against-spread


Continuously Active Surface Disinfectants May Provide Additional Barrier Against the Spread of Viruses
As the novel coronavirus pandemic continues, UArizona researchers are evaluating the potential of antiviral surface coatings in continued defense against the environmental spread of viruses.


Quote:
In the battle to slow or prevent the transmission of viruses, such as the novel coronavirus, continuously active disinfectants could provide a new line of defense, according to a recent University of Arizona study released on the health sciences preprint server MedRxiv.

While disinfecting high-contact surfaces is an important practice to prevent the spread of pathogens, these surfaces can be easily re-contaminated after the use of conventional surface disinfectants. Alternatively, continuously active disinfectants work to actively kill microorganisms and provide continued protection over an extended period of time.

"During the course of respiratory illnesses such as COVID-19, aerosols released during sneezing and coughing contain infectious viruses that will eventually settle onto various surfaces," said Luisa Ikner, associate research professor in the Department of Environmental Science and lead author of the study. "Factors including temperature, humidity and surface type can affect how long viruses such as SARS-CoV-2 will remain infectious after surface deposition."

"The only tools we have currently in reducing the environmental spread of viruses via surfaces are hand sanitizer, hand washing and the disinfection of surfaces," said Charles Gerba, a microbiologist and professor of environmental science in the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences. "This technology creates a new barrier in controlling the spread of viruses in indoor environments."

Gerba and his research team designed and conducted the study – which was funded by Allied BioScience, a company that manufactures antimicrobial surface coatings – to evaluate continuously active antimicrobial technology and its potential use against the transmission of viruses.

"We evaluated this technology by testing a modified antimicrobial coating against the human coronavirus 229E, which is one of the viruses that causes the common cold," Gerba said. "Even two weeks after the coating was applied, it was capable of killing more than 99.9% of the coronaviruses within two hours."

Human coronavirus 229E is similar in structure and genetics to SARS-CoV-2 but causes only mild respiratory symptoms. It can therefore be safely used as a model for SARS-CoV-2 to evaluate antiviral chemistries. The results from these experiments may provide new opportunities for controlling the environmental transmission of COVID-19.

"The standard practice of surface disinfection using liquid-based chemistries according to product label instructions can render many viruses – including the coronaviruses – noninfectious," Ikner said. "In contrast, high-touch surfaces treated with continuously active disinfectants are hostile environments to infectious viruses upon contact and demonstrate increasing effectiveness over time."

Continuously active disinfectant technology has been around for almost a decade but has been focused primarily on controlling hospital-acquired bacterial infections, such as invasive methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus, or MRSA.

UArizona researchers from the Mel and Enid Zuckerman College of Public Health investigated the impact of antimicrobial surface coatings in reducing health care-associated infections in two urban hospitals. The results of that study were published in October and found a 36% reduction in hospital-acquired infections with the use of a continually active antimicrobial.

"As communities are reopening after weeks of stay-at-home restrictions, there is significant interest in minimizing surface contamination and the indirect spread of viruses," Gerba said.

Previous research on the environmental spread of viruses through contaminated surfaces modeled the spread of germs and the risk of infection in an office workplace. In that study, a contaminated push-plate door at the entrance of an office building led to the contamination of 51% of commonly touched surfaces and 38% of office workers' hands within just four hours. With the use of disinfecting wipes, environmental contamination was reduced to 5% of surfaces and 11% of workers' hands.

"Antimicrobial coatings could provide an additional means of protection, reducing the spread of coronaviruses in indoor environments and public places where there is continuous contamination," Gerba said. "We're evaluating a number of products right now and believe it may be the next major breakthrough in environmental infection control."

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real-human



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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00974-w

Is the coronavirus airborne? Experts can’t agree
The World Health Organization says the evidence is not compelling
, but scientists warn that gathering sufficient data could take years and cost lives.



Quote:
In a scientific brief posted to its website on 27 March, the World Health Organization said that there is not sufficient evidence to suggest that SARS-CoV-2 is airborne, except in a handful of medical contexts, such as when intubating an infected patient.


Quote:
Whether people with COVID-19 produce enough virus-laden aerosols to constitute a risk is also unknown, says Lloyd-Smith. Air sampling from people when they talk, breathe, cough and sneeze — and testing for viable virus in those samples — “would be another big part of the puzzle”, he says. One such study failed to detect viral RNA in air collected 10 centimetres in front of one person with COVID-19 who was breathing, speaking and coughing, but the authors didn’t rule out airborne transmission entirely6.

Another crucial unknown is the infectious dose: the number of SARS-CoV-2 particles necessary to cause an infection, says Lloyd-Smith. “If you’re breathing aerosolized virus, we don’t know what the infectious dose is that gives a significant chance of being infected,” he says. An experiment to get at that number — deliberately exposing people and measuring the infection rate at different doses — would be unethical given the disease’s severity.

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real-human



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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CDC must be reading my posts....

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/cdc-coronavirus-mainly-spreads-through-persontoperson-contact-and-does-not-spread-easily-on-contaminated-surfaces-153317029.html

CDC: Coronavirus mainly spreads through person-to-person contact and 'does not spread easily' on contaminated surfaces

Quote:
Even before COVID-19 officially had a name, public health officials said the virus could be transmitted through infected respiratory droplets and by touching infected surfaces and then touching your nose, mouth, and possibly your eyes. So, people began snatching up face masks, wearing gloves, and ramping up hand hygiene to try to protect themselves.

While touching infected surfaces has always been part of the messaging on how the virus spreads, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recently shifted its stance online. The CDC now says that COVID-19 spreads from person to person contact, and then lists touching infected surfaces under a section titled, "The virus does not spread easily in other ways." The CDC adds: “This is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads, but we are still learning more about this virus.” The language is a subtle change from the organization’s warning in early March, when it wrote simply that it “may be possible” to spread the virus through contaminated surfaces.

The CDC, which did not respond to Yahoo Life’s request for comment, still recommends that you wash your hands often with soap and water, and routinely clean and disinfect frequently touched surfaces to protect yourself and others from the virus.

The CDC’s lesser emphasis on infected surfaces as part of the spread of COVID-19 is slightly different from that of the World Health Organization (WHO). The WHO states online that “COVID-19 spreads primarily from person to person,” but adds that, “it can also spread if you touch contaminated objects and surfaces.” The WHO even breaks down for readers all of the commonly-touched surfaces to be wary of, like doorknobs, computers, elevator buttons, and pens, noting that “If you touch something contaminated and then touch your face… you might fall ill.”


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