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prove me wrong.... coronavirus is not airborne
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wsurfer



Joined: 17 Aug 2000
Posts: 1259

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

real-human wrote:
wsurfer wrote:
real-human wrote:
wsurfer wrote:
Who knows at this point. Just wear a mask if you have a conscience!

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them


ya read that guys write up, you can see I posted some of the same research pictures that are ridiculous to make such a conclusion from. the church choir set up chairs and moved chairs and had snacks together, did they have drinks did one person do the pouring, handling of the drinks. But the chairs is amazing that they did not discuss how this would disprove anything they were guessing. That this alone could have been the mode by itself.

The work environment where not even close to all the people got sick if aerosol the people next to them and across from them would have been sick by their method.

Who has been saying masks are not needed from day one and still do not say mandatory. Their top virologists I am sure over 40 or so years are knowledgeable.

Here is the true danger, (which I predicted when CDC changed) as I have mentioned I have kinda unofficially considered myself a manny for two Mexican kids. I am proud of both, both have finished to 10 in math in state. one was the chess champion at an elite school. So not dumb kids. The older one said to me everyone says we do not have to wash our hands like you make us anymore because it is airborne, that is why we need masks on. A false sense of security and dropping the guard on from what I can tell the real issue.

Have you seen the UV die demos... From what I remember in testing for bacteria which should be similar to virus, the highest concentration of bacteria other then hand towels and washing sponges was mice, keyboards, phones, door knobs, sink faucets, and toilet knobs. Anyone at that choir open a door, flush a toilet, open the bathroom door. same with the work room.

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/classroom-experiment-reveals-quickly-germs-spread-26755003

https://laughingsquid.com/how-germs-spread/


If you are solely listening to WHO then you are ill informed.
Masks are meant to mostly prevent the spread. They also help to prevent you touching your nose and mouth, but if you are trying to reinforce your own beliefs then have at it!


ouch so you attack the WHO, and the scientists that they have are world class. wow... Did you read the link on the research from the chinese...

Nope not just WHO, but who are you listening too. I cited others top in the fields. Again have yet to read a peer reviewed one in all these years
https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf
Quote:

COVID-19 is transmitted via droplets and fomites during close unprotected contact between
an infector and infectee. Airborne spread has not been reported for COVID-19 and it is not
believed to be a major driver of transmission based on available evidence
; however, it can
be envisaged if certain aerosol-generating procedures are conducted in health care facilities.
Fecal shedding has been demonstrated from some patients, and viable virus has been
identified in a limited number of case reports. However, the fecal-oral route does not
appear to be a driver of COVID-19 transmission; its role and significance for COVID-19
remains to be determined. Viral shedding is discussed in the Technical Findings (Annex C)

In China, human-to-human transmission of the COVID-19 virus is largely occurring in
families. The Joint Mission received detailed information from the investigation of clusters
and some household transmission studies, which are ongoing in a number of Provinces.
Among 344 clusters involving 1308 cases (out of a total 1836 cases reported) in Guangdong
Province and Sichuan Province, most clusters (78%-85%) have occurred in families.
Household transmission studies are currently underway, but preliminary studies ongoing in
Guangdong estimates the secondary attack rate in households ranges from 3-10%.


https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/04/coronavirus-what-you-should-know-diy-masks-and-ventilators/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::add=SpecialEdition_20200403&rid=2AD9DA1F4C042FDF5179BAD550EDF419&fbclid=IwAR1LvFS4__SxQ4NrOqXW9caijoU56HNK3R-d-MAtVq-gs7ABcpVTsPu11N8

Quote:
Regardless, Davies wrote in a recent summary of her team’s findings that social distancing, hand-washing, and the avoidance of face touching are by far the most effective ways to protect society, adding that masks should be a last resort that is meant to prevent “an unavoidable risk of exposure.” (Here’s how long coronavirus lasts on surfaces and in the air.)



https://newatlas.com/health-wellbeing/cdc-guidance-cloth-face-masks-coronavirus-us-government/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=d2a9b4dfa3-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_04_06_08_13&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-d2a9b4dfa3-90245106

Quote:
Experts have been divided on the topic of mask wearing over the past week. Some have suggested mass population mask wearing may reduce levels of community transmission considering there is increasing evidence of asymptomatic transmission. However, other experts have expressed concern masks can breed a false sense of security, resulting in wearers relaxing social distancing measures and general hygiene practices.

It is this particular concern that seems to be causing the World Health Organization to hold back from instituting general mask wearing recommendations. Michael Ryan, Chief Executive Director of the WHO Health Emergencies Programme, reiterated this point at the WHO’s most recent press briefing.


“We must preserve medical, surgical and respirator masks for our front-line workers but the idea of using respiratory coverings or mouth coverings to prevent coughing and sneezing projecting disease into the environment or towards others; that's a mechanical process and that in itself is not a bad idea but that doesn't negate the need for hand-washing, it doesn't negate the need for physical distancing, it doesn't negate the need for people to stay at home if there's a stay-at-home order in place,” said Ryan.


https://newatlas.com/health-wellbeing/cambridge-coronavirus-widespread-cloth-face-mask-covid-19/
Quote:
There are three general arguments frequently presented against broad general use of face masks: there is no evidence they protect a person from contracting the virus, mass adoption takes valuable resources away from frontline healthcare workers, and they instill a false sense of security in the wearer, resulting in reduced adherence to other important hygiene measures.


The editorial does note prior research investigating real-world mask use in regards to influenza transmission found masks confer “no significant protection.” However, many of the arguments for mask wearing suggest the point of advocating broad mask use is about limiting transmission from those unaware they are infected, instead of acting as a protective measure for healthy subjects.


No link for this one nyt
Quote:
Quotable: Dr. Michael Osterholm, at the University of Minnesota, said he had no doubt that the six-foot distance would clearly “reduce the number of droplets you come in contact with.” But, he added: “The question is what does it take for you to get infected? And that I think is the trillion-dollar question.



Not attacking the WHO, just saying they are not the ultimate authority. Don't rely SOLELY on their recommendations.

Look, I really don't want to be next to someone who sneezes whether I get droplets or not. Just seems to be natural instinct to want to avoid them.

Again why not act with an abundance of caution? Little is still know this far down the road.
If you have a mask on it seems the likelihood of touching your face (some 10-20 times an hour for most) would reduce the potential for infection.
There, that's it.
Some things just seem obvious!

So yeah, social distance, wash, wear a mask and stay healthy. Help others to stay healthy too.
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wsurfer



Joined: 17 Aug 2000
Posts: 1259

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

real-human wrote:
wsurfer wrote:
real-human wrote:
wsurfer wrote:
Who knows at this point. Just wear a mask if you have a conscience!

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them


ya read that guys write up, you can see I posted some of the same research pictures that are ridiculous to make such a conclusion from. the church choir set up chairs and moved chairs and had snacks together, did they have drinks did one person do the pouring, handling of the drinks. But the chairs is amazing that they did not discuss how this would disprove anything they were guessing. That this alone could have been the mode by itself.

The work environment where not even close to all the people got sick if aerosol the people next to them and across from them would have been sick by their method.

Who has been saying masks are not needed from day one and still do not say mandatory. Their top virologists I am sure over 40 or so years are knowledgeable.

Here is the true danger, (which I predicted when CDC changed) as I have mentioned I have kinda unofficially considered myself a manny for two Mexican kids. I am proud of both, both have finished to 10 in math in state. one was the chess champion at an elite school. So not dumb kids. The older one said to me everyone says we do not have to wash our hands like you make us anymore because it is airborne, that is why we need masks on. A false sense of security and dropping the guard on from what I can tell the real issue.

Have you seen the UV die demos... From what I remember in testing for bacteria which should be similar to virus, the highest concentration of bacteria other then hand towels and washing sponges was mice, keyboards, phones, door knobs, sink faucets, and toilet knobs. Anyone at that choir open a door, flush a toilet, open the bathroom door. same with the work room.

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/classroom-experiment-reveals-quickly-germs-spread-26755003

https://laughingsquid.com/how-germs-spread/


If you are solely listening to WHO then you are ill informed.
Masks are meant to mostly prevent the spread. They also help to prevent you touching your nose and mouth, but if you are trying to reinforce your own beliefs then have at it!


ouch so you attack the WHO, and the scientists that they have are world class. wow... Did you read the link on the research from the chinese...

Nope not just WHO, but who are you listening too. I cited others top in the fields. Again have yet to read a peer reviewed one in all these years
https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf
Quote:

COVID-19 is transmitted via droplets and fomites during close unprotected contact between
an infector and infectee. Airborne spread has not been reported for COVID-19 and it is not
believed to be a major driver of transmission based on available evidence
; however, it can
be envisaged if certain aerosol-generating procedures are conducted in health care facilities.
Fecal shedding has been demonstrated from some patients, and viable virus has been
identified in a limited number of case reports. However, the fecal-oral route does not
appear to be a driver of COVID-19 transmission; its role and significance for COVID-19
remains to be determined. Viral shedding is discussed in the Technical Findings (Annex C)

In China, human-to-human transmission of the COVID-19 virus is largely occurring in
families. The Joint Mission received detailed information from the investigation of clusters
and some household transmission studies, which are ongoing in a number of Provinces.
Among 344 clusters involving 1308 cases (out of a total 1836 cases reported) in Guangdong
Province and Sichuan Province, most clusters (78%-85%) have occurred in families.
Household transmission studies are currently underway, but preliminary studies ongoing in
Guangdong estimates the secondary attack rate in households ranges from 3-10%.


https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/04/coronavirus-what-you-should-know-diy-masks-and-ventilators/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::add=SpecialEdition_20200403&rid=2AD9DA1F4C042FDF5179BAD550EDF419&fbclid=IwAR1LvFS4__SxQ4NrOqXW9caijoU56HNK3R-d-MAtVq-gs7ABcpVTsPu11N8

Quote:
Regardless, Davies wrote in a recent summary of her team’s findings that social distancing, hand-washing, and the avoidance of face touching are by far the most effective ways to protect society, adding that masks should be a last resort that is meant to prevent “an unavoidable risk of exposure.” (Here’s how long coronavirus lasts on surfaces and in the air.)



https://newatlas.com/health-wellbeing/cdc-guidance-cloth-face-masks-coronavirus-us-government/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=d2a9b4dfa3-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_04_06_08_13&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-d2a9b4dfa3-90245106

Quote:
Experts have been divided on the topic of mask wearing over the past week. Some have suggested mass population mask wearing may reduce levels of community transmission considering there is increasing evidence of asymptomatic transmission. However, other experts have expressed concern masks can breed a false sense of security, resulting in wearers relaxing social distancing measures and general hygiene practices.

It is this particular concern that seems to be causing the World Health Organization to hold back from instituting general mask wearing recommendations. Michael Ryan, Chief Executive Director of the WHO Health Emergencies Programme, reiterated this point at the WHO’s most recent press briefing.


“We must preserve medical, surgical and respirator masks for our front-line workers but the idea of using respiratory coverings or mouth coverings to prevent coughing and sneezing projecting disease into the environment or towards others; that's a mechanical process and that in itself is not a bad idea but that doesn't negate the need for hand-washing, it doesn't negate the need for physical distancing, it doesn't negate the need for people to stay at home if there's a stay-at-home order in place,” said Ryan.


https://newatlas.com/health-wellbeing/cambridge-coronavirus-widespread-cloth-face-mask-covid-19/
Quote:
There are three general arguments frequently presented against broad general use of face masks: there is no evidence they protect a person from contracting the virus, mass adoption takes valuable resources away from frontline healthcare workers, and they instill a false sense of security in the wearer, resulting in reduced adherence to other important hygiene measures.


The editorial does note prior research investigating real-world mask use in regards to influenza transmission found masks confer “no significant protection.” However, many of the arguments for mask wearing suggest the point of advocating broad mask use is about limiting transmission from those unaware they are infected, instead of acting as a protective measure for healthy subjects.


No link for this one nyt
Quote:
Quotable: Dr. Michael Osterholm, at the University of Minnesota, said he had no doubt that the six-foot distance would clearly “reduce the number of droplets you come in contact with.” But, he added: “The question is what does it take for you to get infected? And that I think is the trillion-dollar question.



Not attacking the WHO, just saying they are not the ultimate authority. Don't rely SOLELY on their recommendations.

Look, I really don't want to be next to someone who sneezes whether I get droplets or not. Just seems to be natural instinct to want to avoid them.

Again why not act with an abundance of caution? Little is still know this far down the road.
If you have a mask on it seems the likelihood of touching your face (some 10-20 times an hour for most) would reduce the potential for infection.
There, that's it.
Some things just seem obvious!

So yeah, social distance, wash, wear a mask and stay healthy. Help others to stay healthy too.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2487

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deleted post. Busy checking all the references.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 12581
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
xxxx. Your original opening statement that 7 years ago you were unable to find proof that people catch flu because it is airborne, is something that has always been a mystery to me.

In the late 1950's when I was a student living in the college, we were swept by Asian Flu. Half got, half didn't, yet we all were exposed to the same centrally heated, stuffy, ill ventilated lecture halls and dorms. I got it, the one I roomed with didn't.

I would have thought that by now that if airborne transmission was so certain there would be a logical explanation for why so many seem to be immune, especially if the virus is a newly mutated one to which nobody would have a natural immunity, such as Asian Flu was?

Can it really all be down to touch, and surfaces, rather than just BREATHING the virus in? (Do some peoples lungs have immunity to a virus, so that it must enter the body via some other mechanism?


seems you forgot about two people... one published near your homeland and one instituted it.

one doctor got ridicule for suggesting doctors wash their hands before delivering babies but continued on with it and mandating it to interns. That is the only thing they did, not wear masks and look at his chart....
And this is what doctors and the medical establishment are telling you to do.

I have put crafted foot operated hand wash stations at each entryway of my property as well as other locations and my general use toilet i drilled a hole in the toilet lever and modified it for foot operation with a gate spring too, same with the kitchen sink and bathroom sink. Because we cannot order things easily i made these with general purpose gate springs and water lever valves., the toilet did not need the valve, just the spring. Used copper tubing for foot pedal and for gate door opening because copper has the fastest kill time of covid19 of any material. and yes I wear a mask when i go off my property in public which is very very rare.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/ignaz-semmelweis-doctor-prescribed-hand-washing




In 1850, Ignaz Semmelweis saved lives with three words: wash your hands





Quote:
On this date in 1850, a prickly Hungarian obstetrician named Ignaz Semmelweis stepped up to the podium of the Vienna Medical Society’s lecture hall. It was a grand and ornately decorated room where some of medicine’s greatest discoveries were first announced. The evening of May 15 would hardly be different — even if those present (and many more who merely read about it) did not acknowledge Semmelweis’s marvelous discovery for several decades.



What, exactly, was the doctor’s advice to his colleagues on that long ago night? It could be summed up in three little words: wash your hands!

At this late date, we all expect our doctors to wash their hands before examining us or performing an operation in order to prevent the spread of infection. Surprisingly, physicians did not begin to acknowledge the lifesaving power of this simple act until 1847





Quote:
Historians are quick to remind that Semmelweis was not the first physician to make this clinical connection, one that many expectant mothers of the era called “the doctors’ plague.” For example, the obstetrician Alexander Gordon of Aberdeen, Scotland, suggested in his 1795 Treatise on the Epidemic of Puerperal Fever that midwives and doctors who had recently treated women for puerperal fever spread the malady to other women. More famously, in 1843 Oliver Wendell Holmes, the Harvard anatomist and self-proclaimed “autocrat of the breakfast table,” published “The Contagiousness of Puerperal Fever,” in which he discerned that the disease was spread by physicians and recommended that actively practicing obstetricians abstain from performing autopsies on women who died of puerperal fever as one of their “paramount obligations to society.”

That said, it was Dr. Semmelweis who ordered his medical students and junior physicians to wash their hands in a chlorinated lime solution until the smell of the putrid bodies they dissected in the autopsy suite was no longer detectable. Soon after instituting this protocol in 1847, the mortality rates on the doctor-dominated obstetrics service plummeted.

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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 12581
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Deleted post. Busy checking all the references.
ok will update mine when you reply.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 12581
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wsurfer wrote:



Not attacking the WHO, just saying they are not the ultimate authority. Don't rely SOLELY on their recommendations.

Look, I really don't want to be next to someone who sneezes whether I get droplets or not. Just seems to be natural instinct to want to avoid them.

Again why not act with an abundance of caution? Little is still know this far down the road.
If you have a mask on it seems the likelihood of touching your face (some 10-20 times an hour for most) would reduce the potential for infection.
There, that's it.
Some things just seem obvious!

So yeah, social distance, wash, wear a mask and stay healthy. Help others to stay healthy too.


Who was not the only one I was relying on, in the first post listed many studies and persons also agreeing there is no science to prove one single person has caught it airborne. and this appears to be what even WHO with some of the top scientists in the field also hold a consensus to. They would never allow WHOs official guideline to be not mandatory masks if it was clear and evidence proved science.

As I have noted with also affirmation from several experts that my problem with masks is that exactly what they say, people then trend to take more risks and do not wash their hands as much because of a false sense of security and as I pointed out ignorance thinking now that is the main way we get it.

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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2487

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dene. What I take from your quoted articles is that the main method of spreading the virus from infected to non infected is

a) Actual droplets coughed or blown into the face, and NOT proven to be the invisible cloud of minute virus particles wafting through the air.

b) Touching contaminated surfaces or items handled by a carrier of the virus.

The best precautions then must be-

a) Wash or disinfect all items such as hands, clothes, and surfaces you have to handle. (e.g. plastic food coverings which will have been through multiple hands.)

c) Social distancing to avoid those droplets.

Oddly, I haven't been wearing a mask to shop because you have to breathe in and if it was airborne you couldn't filter it out., so I didn't think it would have helped. Also, when I shop (once a week, supermarket) I wear a set of clothes which I then leave standing till the week after.

If it really is true that air spreading is not the force it is claimed to be, it goes a long way to explaining how all who are in closed spaces with carriers are not smitten.

Thank you for posting.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16254
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/experiment-shows-human-speech-generates-droplets-that-linger-in-the-air-for-more-than-8-minutes/2020/05/13/7f293ba2-9557-11ea-82b4-c8db161ff6e5_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2487

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Mac, but isn't the distancing rule supposed to be an answer to that? Outdoors it isn't a problem, and in enclosed places there generally isn't a through current of air. If there is, I always try to keep upwind of people, especially if they are talking.

I don't believe an ordinary face mask would effectively shield against tiny droplets, which would cling to the outside of it, and probably be inhaled.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2487

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway, to bed, perchance to dream!
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