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PeteV87
Joined: 05 May 2014 Posts: 18
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Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:48 pm Post subject: Upwind performance - formula boards and foiling |
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I am unfamiliar with formula boards or foiling and I'm curious on how they perform going upwind.
Here is a ranking that I can comfortably state, considering only upwind angle compared to relative wind:
1. Laser sailboats (we've tried it against raceboards at local club many times, these things go at least 5 degrees more into the wind than raceboards)
2. Windsurf raceboards (longboards like Phantom 377 or RSX from the olympics)
3. Windsurf short boards (let's be honest, terrible upwind performance)
If you were to add Formula boards and then Foiling to the list, where would they place in this rank? |
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grantmac017
Joined: 04 Aug 2016 Posts: 946
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Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I can comfortably say that above 10kts a race foil will have slightly better angle than the raceboard, similar to a Laser, and much better VMG than both.
Formula above 12kts will have worse angle than a raceboard, but the same or better VMG.
The moment the foiler can't fly or formula can't plane then all bets are off. However race foils are pushing that limit way down now. |
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dcharlton
Joined: 24 Apr 2002 Posts: 414
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Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Foils are pretty darn good going upwind, almost unbelievable until you fly it. I use a Slingshot 84 wing and it goes pretty much wherever I tell it to go. My biggest problem is going downwind when the wind picks up.
DC |
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boardsurfr
Joined: 23 Aug 2001 Posts: 1266
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Looking at just angles and not VMG makes some sense for comparison to Lasers, but makes no sense when comparing formula boards with raceboards and foils.
For raceboards, keep in mind that top-level raceboarders will be able to point higher than recreational sailors, and have a much higher VMG. We've had a guy who regularly places in the top quarter at the raceboard worlds at our recreational races, and it's "no contest", even though he was just on a Phantom 295. His typical 377 tracks usually have shown right angles upwind, meaning a ~45 degree angle to the wind. He has since upgraded the daggerboard (like most other top-level competitors), and says he can point 5 degrees higher.
As grantmac017 pointed out, formula boards kill raceboards on the VMG, rather than the upwind angle. Race foils take this to another level, since their upwind speed is very close to their beam reach speed. That's typical for all kind of foils - the America's Cup yachts reach 40 knots when pointing high (above 45 degrees).
Looking at VMG in planing conditions, the order is likely windfoil - formula - foilboard - laser & shortboard. If you look only at angles, you may find that the Laser comes out at the top, since Lasers can sail at an angle of ~30 degrees to the true wind; but maximum VMG for the Laser is at 40-46 degrees, which is probably very similar to windfoils and raceboards. Boat speed at 45 degrees, though, will be around 6-8 knots for Lasers, and around 20 knots for foils (in 16 knot wind). |
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dvCali
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 1314
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Upwind performance - formula boards and foiling |
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Yep, the problem is that the Laser will be going at a staggering speed of 5 knots! A Foil will eat a Laser for lunch in any condition when it is actually foiling.
PS The max speed in displacement is 2.43 (knots/m^1/2) x square root of length at waterline (m^1/2), that is for a Laser: 2.43 x about 3.7 = 4.7 knots.
Last edited by dvCali on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999 Posts: 20935
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Upwind performance - formula boards and foiling |
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PeteV87 wrote: | Windsurf short boards (let's be honest, terrible upwind performance) |
Certainly race boards, foils, and Lasers wil point much higher, but the sailors I see complaining most about shortboard ... especially small wave and FSW versions ... upwind angle and VMG are underpowered, are underfinned, and demonstrate lousy technique. Fix those operator errors and the gap, while still significant, narrows. |
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PeteV87
Joined: 05 May 2014 Posts: 18
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you guys, most interesting and educational discussion for me. Looks like a foil will indeed be in my future.
Upwind is important to me because when I'm with my longboard friends, we can pick a small island at random to sail to, go around and sail back, and make that our 2 or 3 hour session for the day. With shortboards, which I do enjoy as well, you usually just go back and forth in the same line, you can't just pick a random spot to go check out without worrying if you will make it back. Intermediate skills here. |
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d0uglass
Joined: 28 May 2004 Posts: 1286 Location: Bonita Springs, Florida
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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I have just a "freeride" style foil, but I think my upwind VMG on that is at least as good as it was on the conventional formula setup that I used to use. Plus, I only need about 2/3 the sail size. Another big difference is that because it's so easy to go upwind on the foil I'll find myself going way upwind then doing a "downwinder" riding the swells and stuff for the heck of it. On a windfoil you can carve turns much much more playfully than on a formula or raceboard, so it's really fun to zigzag up and downwind all over the water.
https://www.strava.com/activities/2939898911 _________________ James' Blog: Windsurfing Equipment Size Calculator
http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2010/11/updated-windsurf-calculator-online.html |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999 Posts: 20935
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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PeteV87 wrote: | With shortboards, which I do enjoy as well, you usually just go back and forth in the same line, you can't just pick a random spot to go check out without worrying if you will make it back. Intermediate skills here. |
Those are choices, not mandates. Long before I could jibe, I roamed -- alone -- miles off the Maui and Oregon shores, miles up and down wind all over a VERY gusty New Mexico lake on the order of 2 X 12 miles, and miles up and down the Columbia River on FSW and wave board sinkers with wave fins. Of course, that presumes winds averaging at least 20ish. Anything much less, or extended rock-bottom lulls, and your longboard buds -- or you; it's a matter of perspective -- will disappear into the sunset.
A little healthy worrying can enhance the experience, especially if you have a Plan B. OTOH, your home turf water is freaking COLD, so even a large shortboard may limit your backup plans.
It sounds like a foil makes a LOT of sense for you, but in the meantime there's no reason you can't start working on the necessary skills before you're competent on a foil. Guy Cribb has some excellent technique tutorials online, including pointing. |
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boardsurfr
Joined: 23 Aug 2001 Posts: 1266
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Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Upwind angles will always depend on skill and power. Typical angles on freeride boards are 10 degrees into the wind (80 degrees to true wind), which severely limits excursions. On a longboard, 30 degree angles are easy. Very good sailors can easily point 15 degrees higher on both types of gear, if everything comes together.
I think foils are almost as great for excursions as longboards, even if the wind is not reliable. If it drops and you can't fly anymore, you are still on a high-volume board with a monster "fin" that makes slogging upwind (or downwind) relatively easy. But I'd probably use a safety line to connect the foil to the board, since loosing the foil after hitting hidden obstacles can be a real bummer, and happens more often than you'd think. |
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