The end of cambered sails!

adywind · Joined: 08 Jan 2012 Posts: 665

It's not true of course, relax! Not yet at least, but this Point 7 video proves again and again that the riders skills is what counts most and to a lesser extent the equipment. Take a look, it's funny and educating at the same time.
https://youtu.be/6vFR8_xxgX8

d0uglass · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:06 am Post subject:

Nice! I wonder if there might be some conditions / types of race where the cams still help, though, like really gusty conditions, or formula racing where you have to go upwind at steep angles.

gvogelsang · Joined: 09 Nov 1988 Posts: 435

I am guessing that the sailors in the video were on 6.5's or something close. It seems to me that in that size, a non-cambered sail with efficient seam shaping doesn't lose much to a cambered sail. Also, the race was a down winder.

Where are cambers an advantage? Certainly in marginal winds, and for going upwind with large sails. I can't see Formula sailors going non-cam in the near future.

On the other hand, I was surprised at the low end of my 8.0 Cheetah this past summer.

techno900 · Joined: 28 Mar 2001 Posts: 4164

Matteo Iachino was the PWA slalom champion this year. Was it the sail or the sailor? Clearly the sailor is great, but could he have done better with a cambered sail? It remains to be seen, but since I have had cambered races sails for years, I would be happy to find a better answer in RAF sails. I would much rather be on my 6.4 RAF sail than my 6.6 race sail for freeriding. Racing??

NOVAAN · Joined: 28 Sep 1994 Posts: 1551

If you are racing then cams are are must. They provide a very slight edge in certain things. It could be the difference in your pay check. For us average guys just out for some fun, that slight edge is not enough to over come the draw backs of cams. Mast wear is one of the big ones for me. Modern No cam sails are just so darn easy and preform great...

boardsurfr · Joined: 23 Aug 2001 Posts: 1266

In slalom races, a good start and great jibes are more important than top speed. Looks like the black sails got good starts in each race, so it may be the sailor. It might even be that a non-cam sail makes it easier to adjust speed while racing to the start line, since they tend to be easier to depower.

Camless sails also tend to be easier to handle in a jibe, so that might also help. The question is how well they'd do when sailed in the middle of the pack, with lots of dirty air. That's when the extra stability and drive from the cams can give an advantage.

It's definitely cool to see that Point7 is pushing what non-cam sails can do. Now if they'd tell us who else was in the practice race, that would help. Or if Matteo would use the AC-X in a PWA race...

U2U2U2 · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:50 am Post subject:

Does it come in blue

DanWeiss · Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 2296 Location: Connecticut, USA

The two Black Point sailors are World Cup sailors, one the current PWA Champion for goodness sakes. Beyond practiced talent, these guys are super fit and have dialed the fins to match the board and sail. So you have that. Which is no small advantage.

One thing not discussed here deserves raising. Non-cammed sails require pressure to "inflate" the foil regardless of design.*

Assume a person stands at a close reach in light wind waiting for a puff. When that puff hits, the cammed sail accelerates with more power due to its rounded leading edge, caused by the cams. The final foil shape will be equally functional for reaching in flat water common in light wind until the sailor enters a lull, at which point the non-cammed sail will deflate and loose power while the cam sail will retain is foil shape and continue to penetrate deeper into the lull.

I realize that many no cam sails pull like trucks. No argument there but, nevertheless, these sails all require the wind to push on the sail body and in order to bring depth to the foil. This takes more wind to generate forward power than a cammed sail which begins to move forward almost right away. That's why many cammed sails give the impression of being heavy, as the sail generates power at every opportunity.

For high-intermediate and better sailors who sail in light to moderate -especially in gusty winds like on a tree-lined lake- a cammed sail performs better in nearly every case.

Sailmakers developed cam sails because were generally faster than no cams, mostly because cams helped stabilize the sail's draft once moving, not so much to get moving in the first place. High wind stability long has been the hallmark of cam sails but as masts improved and the shaping methods of RAF sails changed to work better in larger sizes. That development occurred 20 years ago and improvements keep coming. The Black Point sails are one example of that. But make no mistake; in gusty conditions, with pounding chop, the race sails perform better.

*An exception to this is a sail with a rigid luff, such as solid foam or some wing masts.

swchandler · Joined: 08 Nov 1993 Posts: 10588

From my past experience with race sails many years ago, they're awesome moving hard to windward. While I'm totally camless these days, and I love the easily rigging and rangy performance characteristics in modern designs, I find that they're not nearly as strong moving to upwind. Having that fixed shape in the power zone gives multi-cammed race sails a decided edge in some conditions and venues, particularly if you want to move around.

dllee · Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 5329 Location: East Bay

Or, perhaps, the cambered sails were always paired with a flat rockered wide slalom board, long blady fin, and mast track well forwards.....that allowed the decent upwind sailing.....