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Torture and Ethics
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess mac should have used "person", not "citizen".
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17744
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I quoted an article and presented a position. I thought conservatives were big fans of the Constitution and knew it--not pettifoggers looking for a loophole to torture!
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac said:
Quote:
I thought conservatives were big fans of the Constitution and knew it--not pettifoggers looking for a loophole to torture!


There you go again. You just have to insert the derogatory comment. Since you were pushing fifth amendment rights, I would have thought that the quote you posted for support would have been factual and correct, or at least you would have made the correction.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17744
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno Do you even know what a pettifogger is? A lawyer looking for a loophole so the plain language of the law might not apply to his client. What else do you think justifying abrogating rights for non-citizens was?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17744
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here I go again. Asking the right wing for some coherence, and to take some responsibility for knowing the documents that they profess to rely on. Let's try one that I memorized in 9th grade and don't have to look up--the Declaration of Independence. The preamble is some of the most stirring language ever written:

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

It is the great tragedy of America that we failed to apply this doctrine to slaves--but then counted them as fractions of people for representation.

To take this language, which was indeed the beacon of American exceptionalism in the area of governance, and a huge step forward from the Magna Carta, and then say--never mind, it only applies to citizens--is to abrogate the very bedrock of the government. No true conservative would do that.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something happened to a large part of my last post (disappeared). What did appear clearly doesn't make any sense.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17744
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best take yet on the facts and lies about torture. Watch Last Week Tonight by John Oliver, season 2 Episode 17 if you have HBO. Or watch it here: http://www.alternet.org/video/watch-helen-mirren-and-john-oliver-definitively-debunk-notion-torture-ever-works
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