myiW Current Conditions and Forecasts Community Forums Buy and Sell Services
 
Hi guest · myAccount · Log in
 SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   RegisterRegister 
Cams
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1314

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:


My message is not whether or why anyone should or should not choose cams; that’s a personal choice and I don’t care what the next guy uses. My message is that they should choose based on facts and bona fide experts' opinions of the differences between cams and no cams in light of their own priorities.
...
I bought my first RAF in 1984 from Spanier. For sails , < ~ 6.6m I have favored camless sails ever since ... .


Isobar, this is gone on long enough but it seems a bit condescending to assume that people using cams do so because they are misinformed, and that they should listen to "experts". Many of us have used a wide spectrum of sails and make decisions based on experience. If I read correctly what you write it looks like you have not used a cam in decades and somebody could claim that you are the one making decisions based on hearsay.

Just to give you an idea: in the past I used Retro (6.0 and 7.0), Naish Red Line twin (5.5 and 6.5), and in the last 5-6 years Hot Sails Maui GPS (3-cam race), Hot Sails Maui Speed Deamon (7 batten no-cam slalom) , Hot Sails Maui GP2 (2-cam freerace). My current choices for recreational slalom/speed are based on what works for me, not "expert" opinion.

And just to point that the "debate" is not just between cams vs no-cams, right now I am "debating" if my next 6.0 should be a GP2 (twin cam) or a GPS (4 cams full on race). It is going to be a hard choice. Although I love the easiness of my 6.6 GP2 I am tempted by the rock solidity that a 2014 GPS would offer,
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dvCali wrote:
Isobar, this is gone on long enough

Apparently not for some people, as the topic rises from the ashes frequently.

dvCali wrote:
but it seems a bit condescending to assume that people using cams do so because they are misinformed

SOME people; I never implied all. That's not an assumption; it's a fact clearly in evidence on this forum and on the water. Blanket statements about waterstarting, speed, comfort, rigging, stability, and much more pop up in every cam thread and are quickly countered by many people from both sides. That implies varying degrees of misinformation, experience levels, sail configurations, skill levels, differing priorities, and much more.

How is it condescending that I recommend learning more facts from experts about ANY choice we face? There's certainly no way *I* claim to be one of those experts; that's why I reference Peterson, Macke, etc., and it's why I read so DAMNED many books before making any decision worth the effort. Fortunately, we don't need to study thin foil aerodynamics to choose sails; we can just debate 'em to narrow the field then ... sometimes if not often ... try 'em out.

dvCali wrote:
and that they should listen to "experts".

Why shouldn't they listen to experts, when it comes to facts, in order to better choose whether cams fit their performance needs and priorities? After all, that's what you base your choices on, because your own and others' expertise + your priorities = valid decision. Rumor OR undefined priorities = blind luck.

dvCali wrote:
Many of us have used a wide spectrum of sails and make decisions based on experience ... I used Retro, Naish, Hot Sails Maui GPS and Speed Deamon and GP2 ...

That probably places you in the experts column, where I certainly do not belong. I've tested hundreds of sails, with from 0 to 7 cams, plus double luffs, plus several outlying ideas (e.g., cantilevered mast tips, boom clew through the sail, foam-filled shaped luffs), but am nowhere near an expert in cams. I AM, though, the world's leading expert in my own performance priorities, which more of us should strive to be unless our time, wind, and money mean nothing to us.

dvCali wrote:
My current choices for recreational slalom/speed are based on what works for me, not "expert" opinion.

I apparently have STILL not made myself clear. My reliance on experts is much less for personal opinions and certainly not for priorities; it's for hard facts or at least highly informed technical opinions above my pay grade. Maybe these examples will help:
• "Does a mast pad below my booms (to protect the board nose) slow me down?" Answer from the NASA aerodynamics consultant who designed my sails, in my words: "No; the flow over a WSing sail is so turbulent that it might even help to fatten up the leading edge, especially with an RDM."

• "At what point does sail contact with the boom screw up the sail's performance?" That sailmaker said, in my words, "when the sail's belly becomes visibly distorted by hanging over the boom". His chief competitor said more or less, "Any contact is detrimental to ultimate performance." Both answers are probably correct, as they address different priorities and different performance regimes. If my outhaul is that loose, it's because I loosened it dramatically in a desperate attempt to plane rather than slog home; COE stability is no longer a priority.

I could have found my GPS meter, spent days or flown somewhere looking for flat water and steady wind, tested until my arms fell off, and reached the same conclusions ... or not. Asking these world-class WSing sail designers took me less than five minutes, very like got more reliable answers, put my mind at ease, confirmed my suspicions (or at least provided what I wanted to hear for practical reasons), and are good enough for my priorities. Win/win/win/win/win/win/win.

dvCali wrote:
it looks like you have not used a cam in decades and somebody could claim that you are the one making decisions based on hearsay.

My last ... and I mean last ... cam was about 13 years ago. It was light, easy to rig, rotated cleanly, and unobtrusive, and did its job very well. I threw it (the optional cam, not the sail) into the Columbia River BECAUSE it did its job well. That job was anathema to my priorities; it stiffened the foil ... just what some guys want and others hate. Stiff foils are not a panacea; they're an option. Probably the last cammed Gorge-sized sail I really liked was a Sheldon, and that was before instant maneuverability topped my priorities list. Now that COE stability. speed, and instant maneuverability are no longer mutually exclusive without cams, I'm even happier.

dvCali wrote:
the "debate" is not just between cams vs no-cams

Fully agree, and yet one more valid reason the discussion has not "gone on long enough" for some buyers.

dvCali wrote:
... rock solidity ...

I shudder at the thought. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gobbdogg



Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 163

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAWN.. sorry, fell asleep reading the last post...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was intended for those interested in the topic. If that's not you, you need to stop listening to the guy who made you try.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3549

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
coachg wrote:
Iso’s,

You often talk about how important to you that extra 1 minute of sailing is that you would lose while rigging a cam sail. In the grand scheme of sailing that extra minute of rigging is insignificant, but to you it is huge.

A cam sail offers a few degrees upwind/downwind & maybe an extra knot over an RAF sail in recreational sailing which is insignificant in the grand scheme of sailing, but to a person who chooses cams it is huge.

So for you to understand why some people choose cams, walk a mile in their shoes. Think about how you feel about that extra minute and apply that to performance.

Done.

Coachg

You misunderstand my purpose and motive.


I didn't misunderstand your motive, I was trying to answer your question in a way you could understand.

isobars wrote:
why spend the money, weight, time, and hassle on them for what the vast majority of us do, when a Retro, 511, or other such camless wonders are simpler, lighter, and at least as effective?


Coachg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, it's now clearly understood? Cammed sails, in certain applications, have a performance edge!

Furthermore, those of us who choose to use them in these specific applications DON'T just disappear and fall off the edge of the world in a locked in straight line, because we know how to gybe with them.

Simple! Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I have to add my two cents. Gurgle got it right by the way.

I have had both cammed sails and RAF's for 30 years. What I use and when is dependent on my boards, conditions and type of sailing. My sails from 6.6 to 11.0 are all race sails with cams. From 6.0 to 4.0 are RAFs. I use the cammed sails on my slalom board and my formula board, where I am upwind or downwind sailing or full powered reaching at speed.

However, I have the most fun on my 6.0 and smaller sails on my bump and jump boards where a "soft" sail is really sweet.

In very general terms, novices and intermediates will likely be happier with non-cammed sails even up to 9.0. When experience reaches the advanced level, and if sailing slalom/speed or formula boards with big sails, then cammed sails can offer a benefit.

Most advanced sailors that use race sails with large luff sleeves, normally don't drop them in the water, so uphauling or water starting is rarely an issue. However, my MauiSails TR sails have zippers around the boom attachment and are pretty water resistant if dropped in the water. You have to leave it in the water for quite a while to fill the sleeve with water. I also have easy-up-hauls on my larger sails just in case.

And by the way, my race sails rig faster than those with skinny luff sleeves. I have mine down hauled with the boom on before the other guys have their mast in. Of course, this all depends on how easy it is to get the mast inserted. For me, it's 2-3 seconds. I do have to pop on the cams later, but that is fast and easy too. Maybe overstated, but the argument that cammed sails are slow to rig is not true, at least for MauiSails.


Last edited by techno900 on Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are saying almost exactly what I have been saying, with a few specific small differences. I'll be curious to see how much flak you take for it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2296
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry if my post covers old ground, but it's worth understanding that full-blown race sails work best on boards with rocker lines that contain some flat and trim out @ 4 degrees, more or less. One reasons race sails don't really work well on wave boards has everything to do with the incongruent forces.

A 6.0 race sail is designed with top speed control and rapid acceleration out of a jibe in mind. It's a funky combination, and assumes use on a very aggressive, slalom-type board. Not to say that it won't work fairly well on flatter-rocketed bump and jump-style boards, but such boards usually sail well at a slightly lower speed than the cruising speed of a 6.0 racing sail. Those racing sails tend to have only pedal setting: flat to the floor. If the board and fin combination a bit more draggy than a slalom race setup, the sail will feel heavier and as if it's overpowered when it's simply being held back by the drag in the water.

Going "down" from a race sail toward "de-tuned" racing sails, RAF sails with tube battens and eventually turning the corner toward wave designs, we see that board designs roughly follow the categories of sail designs.

So if you already know that a modern race sail works with your board, another race sail likely will do so, as will the de-tuned versions and RAF sails with tube battens.

_________________
Support Your Sport. Join US Windsurfing!
www.USWindsurfing.org
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
QueNeo



Joined: 10 May 2014
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that cammed sails necessarily have a higher top end, it's that they get going faster and plane earlier out of jibes. If you're planning, you are faster than the guy who has more top end but doesn't get going till you are at the next mark. It's like a speed needle vs a modern wide slalom board - the speed needle will go faster, but it may not go at all until the other board is already at the first mark.

Once you have jibed, they already have shape. I just read online somewhere where Ben Severene wrote that one of his RAFs had a higher top end then his full on race sail.

They also should bring the COE forward.

Oh and it's another tuning point for racers, they can adjust cam tension which allows more control over where the COE is.

But there's other things in place too, when comparing race sails to non race sails, it's not just that they have cams, but more battens (8 or 9 on most) big luff sleeve, lower foot, and more twist. So they are different animals.

Really, wave sails and bump and jump haven't changed very much in a decade or even decade and a half, pretty much just reintroducing old styles, and new colors (more twist, less twist, more twist, more battens, less battens, etc) , while races sails are constantly changing, though in pretty small increments per year these days. The one recent trickle down from racing I can think of is the cut out clew, which brings COE forward also btw.

So, I would say for non race sails, ie 2 cam sails the main benefit if there is one would be earlier planing, and a more stable sail at the expense of maneuverability and weight. I also think rafs are not as mast dependent, since rotation isn't an issue.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 4 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum

myiW | Weather | Community | Membership | Support | Log in
like us on facebook
© Copyright 1999-2007 WeatherFlow, Inc Contact Us Ad Marketplace

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group