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The Short Board Tack
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1330
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Is there an honest bone in your body? I said “tack to a crawl” (i.e., failing to plane out of the tack), not “crawl to a tack” (i.e., enter the tack slogging). Your word games give our professional word-game champs a run for their money, but you’re not on the podium yet.

Didn't yo momma advise you to look before you bash?

You left out my favorite food, the all-purpose banana: promoting multiple techniques, many of them readily available to any intermediate or advanced sailor to get and stay upwind rather than relying on the elusive, allegedly even mythical, planing tack and insisting that everyone must follow suit or drift into flood tide oblivion. i.e., I’m suggesting people add apples and bananas to their repertoire, but you’re demanding they must drop the apples and rely only on mythical oranges. i.e., MyWayOrTheHighway.

Now, just who is the SPWSG … MWOTH or Chiquita Banana? And how many people want to devote 8 hours of sailing every windy day for years PRACTICING eating an apple when they could just peel and eat bananas and get on with the fun stuff?

Meanwhile, slogging knee-deep in a flood tide is about as productive as the Puffin’s faceplant … er … gecko loop, in fact even much more counterproductive.


Hmm, sorry, I guess I don't have an honest bone in my body. Despite my 10's of thousands of hours interacting with millions of people on a daily basis. (See if it smells like BS, it is BS).....

But why was I bashing??? I don't think ANYWHERE in my post I mentioned anybody's name (yours included). As most fables it didn't have any. But I was right about one thing, one person wouldn't get it. Instead that person (you in case you didn't get the inference) had to change it once again to his own opinion.

WHICH by the way, WTH are you even reading this post? We are talking about tacking. Something you have NO knowledge of or skill in doing, yet you persist in offering us all your "knowledge" on the subject. Once again proving that you are nothing but a waste of bandwidth.

Oh yeah, try WATCHING people tack (since obviously you are afraid to try it). You won't see them knee deep in the tack. I posted my picture to show how badly one can go on a full sinker board, yet still work. But then again, we don't have any pictures of you (or video) just words.........
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tstizzle



Joined: 05 Jul 2000
Posts: 242

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: The Short Board Tack Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
I started this post for debate on the merits of a short board tack and stop hijacking tstizzle's fine post on Lake Arenal.


thanks coachg! Wink

this post has been informative too. and it just reinforces my belief that i need to work on tacking. while i understand iso's perspective about tight jibes (and have lived it to date), i have seen too many people sailing waves on the cali coast who, it appeared to me anyway, had no room to jibe at the end of the wave. it was tack or nothing.

granted, though i basically NEVER sail waves on the cali coast, i still have dreams of wave sailing somewhere one day. so i want to learn to tack.

besides, i love trying new things. for me, falling in is half the fun!
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rigitrite



Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 520
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has proved one indisputable fact: Isobars cannot tack a shortboard.....period.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: The Short Board Tack Reply with quote

tstizzle wrote:
coachg wrote:
I started this post for debate on the merits of a short board tack and stop hijacking tstizzle's fine post on Lake Arenal.


thanks coachg! Wink

while i understand iso's perspective about tight jibes (and have lived it to date), i have seen too many people sailing waves on the cali coast who, it appeared to me anyway, had no room to jibe at the end of the wave.

Neither of these threads, nor any of my comments, addressed wave sailing.

And, after all, you explicitly requested advice on staying upwind when wind and current directions coincided.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rigitrite wrote:
This thread has proved one indisputable fact: Isobars cannot tack a shortboard.....period.

As I stated from the beginning.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try posting one word of truth, Gerritt, and I might respond.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3549

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: The Short Board Tack Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
And, after all, you explicitly requested advice on staying upwind when wind and current directions coincided.


Then it is my bad for starting this thread. I don't remember him asking that. I thought tstizzle asked for help understanding why we Delta sailors needed backwind sailing & tacks to stay up wind on big flood tides.

Coachg
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tstizzle



Joined: 05 Jul 2000
Posts: 242

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: The Short Board Tack Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
isobars wrote:
And, after all, you explicitly requested advice on staying upwind when wind and current directions coincided.


Then it is my bad for starting this thread. I don't remember him asking that. I thought tstizzle asked for help understanding why we Delta sailors needed backwind sailing & tacks to stay up wind on big flood tides.

Coachg


it was both, actually. the statement i made was about the delta sailors being able to get further upwind by backwind sailing than schlogging will allow. so, coachg, good on ya for starting this. i have been following along and learning about my future in the delta!

but iso is correct too: the gist of my question was about staying upwind when water and wind are together. (my recent comment about wave sailing was purely additional and anecdotal)

personally i find all of this interesting. but i still don't know the answer to my literal question (but i suspect i might know it):

"backwind sailing will allow you to hold a much, much stronger upwind angle than simply schlogging. we were guessing it was because of the pressure on the windward rail of the board, which might help to increase the board's traction in the water. any help with this?"

in other words, what specifically is allowing the board to go further upwind when backwinding relative to schlogging?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also have that question, but purely academically. After all, can't we duplicate the rig position and lee rail depression regardless of which way we're facing?

Besides, there are MANY readily accessible things we can do to enhance our upwind ability, most of them independent of how we do our U-turns. After all, the tens of feet difference in a good U-turn, even without the relative odds of blowing a shortboard tack vs a jibe, pales compared to the extra hundreds of feet we can gain from a higher-pointing half-mile reach.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3549

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m not so sure you can hold a higher upwind angle when backwind sailing instead of normal schlogging. But if you can, it would be because you can get the nose of the board pointed higher into the wind as opposed to normal schlogging. Using the clock again where the wind is coming from 12:00 & you are schlogging, the true wind and apparent wind will be basically 12:00 so if you are on a starboard tack heading around 10:00, the clue of your sail will be pointed between 5 & 6. If you try to point the nose of your board to 11:00 your clue will still need to be @ 5&6 leaving you little place to stand on the board. When back wind sailing the clue can stay between 5&6 and you will have plenty of room on the board. As a matter of fact, the closer the nose of your board gets to 12:00 on a starboard tack the more room you have on the leeward side of the board.

As I said before, the main reason we backwind sail when schlogging upwind is so we don’t have to change sides of a sinking board. Zig-zagging back & forth upwind going from normal schlogging to backwind sailing is more efficient & takes less energy than constant tacking. Also, you can push more weight than you can pull so backwind schlogging takes less energy than normal schlogging. When normal schlogging where I can’t use a harness my arms expend much more energy than when I backwind sail.

Coachg
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