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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1253

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dllee wrote:
Saw a good winger on a sub 1000 foil and 3.0 in 15-22 mph Berkeley.
Believe me, Vlad is as fast as 90% of windsurfers, and foils through every jibe.
He said his daughter is faster and jibes better.
If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't believe it.

Wingers seem clearly more agile than a windsurf ... not really a surprise: there is no mast!

Speed based on a month of observations at Crissy with literally dozen wings around. Port side (against the chop) close to the wind in 4.2/4.7 conditions they go somewhat slower than my FSW 81. But they have a somewhat better angle to the wind. On starboard side in the same conditions on a broad reach I pass them in a blink. The FSW in 4.2/4.7 is no speed monster: it is doing at the very most 25-27 knots, so I think they are going maybe 20 ... maybe as fast as a windfoil with a wave foil.

But Kevin is right, the point with a wing is the fun ... not straight line speed.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 5054
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couple points.
FSW IS the fastest board in 4.5 conditions at ebb Crissy.
Assuming you are a good windsurfer, are you sure the wingers you pass so easily are actually good wingers?
How good did you windsurf after 2-3 years? That is the most experience a winger can have.
Most wingers are using absolutely HUGE foils to learn.
Around 1700sq cm is average.
The few fast guys are using around 900 sq cm. That would be their MS race foil sizing from formula foil.
If they were remotely interested in speed, they would be using 450 sq cm front foils.
I windfoil with a 600 sq cm foil. It is faster than almost any other windfoiler, but, is not nearly small enough for 20-30 mph winds. I use it in 10-20 mph breezes at Berkeley with 4.2 sail.
See the differences? And wingers are ALL beginners if we go by thei 3 years of winging.
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loopless



Joined: 30 Jun 1997
Posts: 398

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds just like the old "windsurfing is cancelled" argument we all heard from kiters when they would stop you on the beach and tell you HOW AWESOME kiting was and what LOSERS we all were for continuing to windsurf. It was tiresome then and is tiresome now coming from wingers.
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rigatoni



Joined: 25 Feb 1999
Posts: 483

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loopless-The winging phenomenon is very different from when kiting took off 10-15 years ago Though most of the regular kiters at Crissy have ditched kiting in favor of winging, there are also a lot of windsurfers going straight to winging and in many cases still windsurfing when the wind is howling.

I have seen so many positive vibes down there about the new sport but also a lot of respect towards people doing their old school thing as well. The sport has brought many new faces down to the beach as well as some I haven't seen in years. We all mostly park together and there seems to be a lot less tribalism than in the past. Some of us joke that maybe kitesurfing is cancelled now but in truth, I think we all just like to be on the water and who cares what gets you there.
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1253

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rigatoni wrote:
...

I have seen so many positive vibes down there about the new sport but also a lot of respect towards people doing their old school thing as well. The sport has brought many new faces down to the beach as well as some I haven't seen in years. We all mostly park together and there seems to be a lot less tribalism than in the past. Some of us joke that maybe kitesurfing is cancelled now but in truth, I think we all just like to be on the water and who cares what gets you there.


I second that, Crissy seems a different place these days, much more friendly. I am not sure why that is, although I suspect it was just the size of the beasts that caused more territorial issues ... we are monkeys!

Now ... if only the fog lifted we could all go back there Shocked Shocked Shocked this was supposed to be a sunny week of 20 plus everyday and it was a foggy extravaganza with no wind ...
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jse



Joined: 17 Apr 1995
Posts: 1402
Location: Maui

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rigatoni wrote:
Loopless-The winging phenomenon is very different from when kiting took off 10-15 years ago Though most of the regular kiters at Crissy have ditched kiting in favor of winging, there are also a lot of windsurfers going straight to winging and in many cases still windsurfing when the wind is howling.

I have seen so many positive vibes down there about the new sport but also a lot of respect towards people doing their old school thing as well. The sport has brought many new faces down to the beach as well as some I haven't seen in years. We all mostly park together and there seems to be a lot less tribalism than in the past. Some of us joke that maybe kitesurfing is cancelled now but in truth, I think we all just like to be on the water and who cares what gets you there.


Since I moved to Maui I have not felt any tribalism or kiter vs windsurfer vibe like I experienced in Cali. I think it has to do with the fact that things naturally sort themselves out here. Some breaks on the west side have become foiler only for surfers, but 500 yards away are breaks the foilers don't surf and are popular with traditional surfers. North sure they have rules as to who can go where and when and they are largely adhered to. But mostly I see people who fashion themselves as "watermen" or "waterwomen" to some level, and respect others that they also classify as such. So Ho'okipa is all windsurfers and surfers. Some foilers venture there. Kanaha is all windsurfers and wingers. Ka'a is a combination of kiters and wingers. We all get along.

The one exception I am beginning to see is a direct result of the wing phenomenon. The best place to learn the sport is in Kahalui Harbor and it is being overtaken by newby wingers in droves. There is a club with a large hale there and they have been active there for years, training and practicing, terminating downwind runs and accessing the open ocean. Due to Covid the canoe clubs have shut down, meanwhile the harbor has been "discovered" by the wingers wanting to learn the new sport. Now the canoe clubs are returning and are none too happy about all the wingers there now. Time will tell how this sorts itself out.

Steve
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rigatoni



Joined: 25 Feb 1999
Posts: 483

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve,

Your observations are interesting but not entirely my experience as a visitor or what I've heard and read about a lot of localism, particularly as it relates to popular surf breaks. Maybe that is just a North shore of Oahu thing?
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jse



Joined: 17 Apr 1995
Posts: 1402
Location: Maui

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rigatoni wrote:
Steve,

Your observations are interesting but not entirely my experience as a visitor or what I've heard and read about a lot of localism, particularly as it relates to popular surf breaks. Maybe that is just a North shore of Oahu thing?


Localism exists for sure on Maui at Honolua Bay, but understandable. That break is one of the best rights in the world and used to be unknown. Now it is packed and tourist surfers might suffer some blowback. The only north shore break I surf is Kanaha in the winter, and it is again, segregated by discipline, kind of organically. Foils in one spot, longboards and SUPs in another. Same deal with the west side breaks, 1000 Peaks (Peeps?), Launiupoko, Woody's, Guardrails, etc... As a pretty lousy surfer, I have never experienced any grief save one time where I took the shoulder paddling out, causing a lady to miss her ride. (My bad, I take it on the head now).

Also, I'm not a Ho'okipa sailor - not qualified during the winter and no reason to during the summer. I do surf and body surf at Pavillions however. People are very friendly there.

My one surfing experience on O'ahu was mixed. Canoes was a kook-fest. Right in front of the Ala Moana, tourist central, easy paddle out, nice waves. Lots of speed bumps if you are lucky enough to catch a wave. However I saw a break far outside and in frustration, paddled out to it. There were beautiful waves, maybe 10 surfers, all friendly and chatty. I found out it is known as Pop's, for "popular". Didn't seem that popular on that day.

Steve
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 5054
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a former surfer, Honolulu was known to the world by 1967, when Nat Young was filmed slo mo riding the 7'7" x 23" deep V bottom Plastic Fantastic Flying machines. A surf movie by that name came out then. 1967.
Only spot on the Islands I faced localism was Tunnels on Kaui, circa 1975.
I've logged over 50 days at Pipe, and 50 at Sunset. No problem.
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jse



Joined: 17 Apr 1995
Posts: 1402
Location: Maui

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rigatoni wrote:
Steve,

Your observations are interesting but not entirely my experience as a visitor or what I've heard and read about a lot of localism, particularly as it relates to popular surf breaks. Maybe that is just a North shore of Oahu thing?


To be clear, my original post on this was regarding inter-sport tribalism, not localism. But to return to my original point, and this is purely subjective, I found a lot of kiter vs. windsurfer resentment in Cali - i.e., kiters got in my way, or windsurfing has been cancelled - and I don't see that here at all on Maui, except for the afore-mentioned Canoe vs. newbie winger resentment, and that to me is a reasonable thing.

Steve
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