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adywind
Joined: 08 Jan 2012
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 Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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For a Grand Finale of my little multifin theoretical investigation I would like to present you the latest wave board test in the German Surf-magazine which takes part on the coast of Northsea with the typical windswell coastal conditions/also known as "euro " constitutions:
http://www.surf-magazin.de/test_technik/test/boards/waveboards/test-2015-waveboards/a15625.html
For those who can't read German there are tabs under every single test that are pretty explanatory. It confirms my own suspicions that tri-fin boards and FSW are quite similar/btw the Naish Global has the least amount of tail kick and a very wide tail and is praised as the first Naish suitable for "euro" conditions in a long time/.
In conclusion if I have to choose a single high wind board for my 165 lbs I'll go 80-90l:
1.No waveriding-single fin FSW
2.Some waveriding -tri-fin FSW or a single/thruster board if the brand doesn't have a Tri-fin FSW like RRD or Naish. A FSW would be preferable for the more gusty wind places.
3.predominantly waveriding -quad
4.waveriding with lots of "new school "sliding tricks-twinser
!!! My investigation doesnt include Hookipa-type or big glossy wave and low wind type riding, so if you are one of the lucky ones please disregard!!!
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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1158
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to try the Kode Wave in 82L, I wish I had tried it on that day. The only thing is that I'm afraid of twins and today didn't help with this.
I did run into this thread which you might find helpful:
http://forums.boards.mpora.com/showthread.php/73687-2014-kode-wave-82-vs-2012-kode-80
Now onto the reviews, I will return to twin setups thereafter.
Conditions:
Weaker 5.0 (Got better little by little), thanks Club Mistral for letting me try their 2010 Fanatic NewWave Twin in 86L.
The board had excellent reviews, 86L but 57cm wide, it feels quite a bit smaller than 86. I was semi-powered to powered 5.0. My first impression was that the tail was small and I needed to make sure I kept my weight forward and stay well centered.
Planing Ride, Speed and Jumps
The board being a little narrow took some wind to take off but then showed a nice speed. It was nimble, reactive, and jumped well, on the flip side it was quite technical to ride over big chop.
In this snapshot you can see how much tail is in the water and yet I'm nose diving in the chop while planing. This shows that the board needs attention when sailing along and will just not auto-pilot. It wasn't nearly as skatey as the Evo I tried previously but still lacked drive for my application. The tail just doesn't carry enough power to cruise through lulls when sailing underpowered or hitting wind shadows.
Surf
On my way back I tried surfing a few swell slopes and wasn't impressed with how quick it was, actually it felt very similar to riding a (too) small single. It didn't pick up speed or kept its speed down the wave as much as the Single Thruster or the Quad. It also didn't correct as quickly as I thought it should at the bottom turn. Now this is in slower waves, a more powerful wave with a cleaner face which generates more speed will certainly fit the board better or maybe for someone with more advanced skills.
At the top turn, depending on where the fins sit, they may break loose, the board flattens and slides. Again, I didn't find it much different from riding a small fin. On the snapshot above you can see the board sliding flat on the peak. This can be nice but can also require more effort to get back into the wave, depends on style, timing, etc.
The conditions that day were really tough, lots of current, it wasn't pretty, quite big too. I wish I had tried it in proper waves, but since I need a board that can drive me through wind shadowed side-on waves, at my current level I am not willing to fight an unstable planing ride especially when the board isn't at its best in sloppy waves too!
Upwind ability
Also, it took me a couple of rides to get back upwind while I had only done a couple of turns, on the Quad, I could do many turns and would end up at the same point without making a particular effort to head back upwind. That said the Quad is quite over finned!
The review by boardseeker was pretty much dead on and this thread confirms my findings:
http://forums.boards.mpora.com/showthread.php/73713-Your-thoughts-about-the-newwave-twin-86
But what causes the ride to be technical?
To confirm that a board can be technical even though its volume is higher, I went on and tried a 2014 73L 54cm Angulo Chango. It's the smallest board I have ever sailed both in terms of volume and width. Despite the wind being light for such a board with my weight (70kgs), the volume is distributed out back so it isn't as technical as the numbers suggest. A 21.5cm fin was fitted on it, which was much too big for the board but regardless...
The board felt like a soft freewave, quite directional, wide tail, fast, the footstraps were tight and I didn't want to mess with the owner's adjustments. I tried to surf one swell and it felt it was quite slow to turn.
Probably a good board for bigger guys in super strong conditions or just bump & jumping around. I found that the board did bounce a bit at the jibe but a light weight guy here rides it and always duck jibes it without issues.
I ended up the most upwind of all boards tested today! The board tracks straight, had a soft touch, was easy to ride without burying rail or nose.
Going back on my troublesome Acid
Finally, I changed to my Acid from which I had backed up the fin a touch, more towards the center. It didn't feel back at all. Then I was more powered, the surf felt really nice on it with full rail turns, however it slows down a lot before the top turn, this is a problem in side-on and where the Quad is so much better. The board's tracking isn't as bad as the Fanatic but its speed is slower, this is hurting jumps, planing loss threshold and getting to harder to reach peak sections. I would probably like the board better in its 80L version as it does feel long and just "big."
Preferred Boards:
So after testing various boards, for my skill level, for what I want to do right now (surfing as much as possible, hitting the lip, off-the-lip aerials and loops) and the type of conditions I sail, I liked the all-around wave boards the best. The Starboard Quad for a light wind application, maximum wave speed, early planing, mushy water performance including white water, and its stability. The JP Single Thruster for its great jumping, a size which I feel I can handle, speed on a wave with a very secure grip.
Least preferred:
I found the Evo, the Acid and the NewWave Twin to be the most technical boards. In the volume I tried probably better suited for someone heavier or better skilled than me.
Multi-fin thoughts:
I had always been fan of riding the smallest fin possible on any board. Basically go as low as I can until spin-out becomes an issue. This allowed greater speed, maximize maneuverability, and help with very short turns. However, it does cost some upwind reaching angle and this is when the side fins come into play. They help getting back the angle that was lost and add grip.
In a side-on application, a board must turn sharply and quickly, the longer it takes to turn the more speed is lost and the more upwind we'll need to run. Waves size and speed also play a role. A multi fin can transform a slow mushy wave into a delicious surfing ride!
Multi fins also help with securing the carve at the bottom turn, while a small single can more easily be upset by chop or user error, a thruster will carve the turn slicing the water with immense grip, it's an amazing feeling.
As far as twin fins go, in a light wind side-on application, I found that they lacked a bit of upwind ability to compete with quad or tris. Sure they are looser and quicker to turn, but the ride over heavy chop doesn't feel as planted. For a rider with more skill, more wind or willing to put up with the technical ride, they can be rewarding though.
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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| adywind wrote: | | I'm starting to doubt a bit the wisdom behind the wave thrusters. I can see the usefulness in FSWs-to slow things down a bit in realy rough stuff, to eliminate tail-walk and provide tight turning on a wave or in a jibe, but on a wave board with a lot of rocker already?! What you say Manuel-don't you think the JP FSW in thruster mode will be on par for wave-riding and better in anything else then the JP SingleThruster ? |
I'm not a big fan of boards that try to do everything for me. Well, rather... if a board does too much then it may hide things that I'm doing wrong. I rode a Freewave board for too long. The board had too much volume out back, was too wide ofo, had its back strap too far forward, etc. This helped crushing lulls and going straight but it didn't help my jibe by being too bouncy, having to draw a long arc no matter how hard I pushed down on it or how small of a fin I'd fit the darn thing.
I thought the Single Thruster would make a great bump & jump board for an intermediate+ rider. Of course it's always better to gradually step down in the volume and width of boards as to softern the learning curve. ex: 100L freeride board > 85L FSW > 75L all around wave > 75L hardcore wave.
I think it's great if a Freewave board can be run with more fins, why not? Yes it can help with turning and staying in control. For an intermediate- it's best to have a strong solid fin, it helps with staying upwind (to come back to launch site), helps gain speed more easily (to get in the straps), etc. By the time the board starts tail-walking the intermediate rider will be so struggling with the sail that having side fins on will not be enough for him/her to stay on the water, I'm afraid.
| adywind wrote: | | I mean look at Starboard-they stopped doing thrusters for a while and the reason I guess is that quads and twins work so nicely in any kind of waves. Now they are puting thrusters in the Kode FSWs in 2015 which makes sense-the FSW is the best contender for a one board strong wind solution for guys like me sailing in crappify conditions but still wanting to have some wave "simulation " now and then. |
Quad or Thrusters can achieve similar things. Manufacturers try to make their shape work with either. It may be more natural for a Thruster-type shape to run as a single than a Quad? But Starboard's Evo offer both the Twin and Single option in their shape...
Anything can be done. We all sail such different venues, even pros setup their board differently when traveling and I think it's great to have the options. It's cheaper to change fins than to change boards!
| westender wrote: | After reading these threads the last couple months, I never realized how friggin complicated this sport is. The advice from some of the junior members is more bewildering than our equipment choices.  |
It is but that is one of the multiple reasons why it's so fascinating.
I have never been as passionate as I am about a sport.
| adywind wrote: | | The thing with multis is that you need at least a size bigger for the same conditions compared to the singles. |
This is something that I heard too, it makes sense but it still comes down to how big the board sizes (no matter how many fins it has on).
As a very condensed statement, to achieve maximum maneuverability, we can shrink a board's width and fin length. With multi-fins we can achieve the same maneuverability with a slightly wider board for the same wind speed. This means that ultimately, we have a board a little bit less technical.
As a counter example, the 2010 Starboard Quad sizes big. So the 86 is more like a 90. Would I be comfortable with a 90L board in the air powered up on a 4.2? No. The 2010 Fanatic NewWave Twin 86L is 57cm wide, same stated volume and yet, I'd feel way more confident in the air on a 4.2.
| adywind wrote: |
In conclusion if I have to choose a single high wind board for my 165 lbs I'll go 80-90l:
1.No waveriding-single fin FSW
2.Some waveriding -tri-fin FSW or a single/thruster board if the brand doesn't have a Tri-fin FSW like RRD or Naish. A FSW would be preferable for the more gusty wind places.
3.predominantly waveriding -quad
4.waveriding with lots of "new school "sliding tricks-twinser
!!! |
I'd roughly agree but will add this.
How much wind is the high wind?
1. Type of chop? A wide butt FSW may struggle and bounce on the chop and hurt an intermediate jibe learning curve. Sometimes an onshore board will be easier than a FSW.
2. Mostly agree!
3. Quads can make a board super loose, have tons of grip, ease of upwind, fast on mushy waves. But they may saturate in high winds, saturate down fast waves, there are all-around quads, side-off quads, etc.
4. Yes.
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jingebritsen
Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3371
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:22 am Post subject: |
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great testing manuel. the way i have learned to wave sail, it's the entire kit that has to work, not just the board.
try to match sail sizes more aggressively large with your larger feeling boards. that way, off the wind you can get more sail power/glide up into the forced front side and backside top turns. will also provide more power and leverage to carve deeper in bottom turns.
day before yesterday was side on with 20-30 mph winds. i chose a 5.8 sail to max my ability to have sail power for extended front side rides. also allowed me to grind back upwind without having to make multiple tacks. sailed a triangle. upwind out and back for the next set up.
believe it or not, formula sailing helped me prepare for this type of wave sailing. sail hard upwind with the largest sail possible, because down wind the extra size is needed. had the wind been side off, i would have chosen a 5.2 sail.
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| manuel wrote: | 2010 Fanatic NewWave Twin in 86L @ 57cm wide, it feels quite a bit smaller than 86. I was semi-powered to powered 5.0. My first impression was that the tail was small and I needed to make sure I kept my weight forward and stay well centered.
Planing Ride, Speed and Jumps
The board being a little narrow took some wind to take off but then showed a nice speed. It was nimble, reactive, and jumped well, on the flip side it was quite technical to ride over big chop.
In this snapshot you can see how much tail is in the water and yet I'm nose diving in the chop while planing. This shows that the board needs attention when sailing along and will just not auto-pilot. It wasn't nearly as skatey as the Evo I tried previously but still lacked drive for my application. The tail just doesn't carry enough power to cruise through lulls when sailing underpowered or hitting wind shadows. |
Agreed, but the solutions are at hand if one wishes to take advantage of their plusses. Slightly bigger sail, bigger fin, and more TOW on small-tailed boards -- or maybe just one short session way overpowered in gnarly chopswell -- and narrow boards with small tails become second nature … i.e., on auto-pilot. That NewWave 86 is wider than even my 96L boards, especially in the tail, yet none of my (keeper) boards have NEVER EVER stabbed even face-high chop. I trust all my boards 100% not to do that under any circumstances (not counting rider error when standing almost still on tiny, short, wide boards); pearling hurts too much when hooked in at top speed and its mere possibility distracts me too much when struggling to plane or when blasting down one face and up the back of the next one while looking three rows ahead (or staring in awe at snow-covered Mt. Hood). Snagging/catching/pearling isn't inherently a narrow board thing -- my sub-50-cm boards don't pearl either -- it's a much more complex issue. My much shorter and much wider EVO was skatier, but I've never before or since had a board that could pearl like it did in big chop.
| manuel wrote: | But what causes the ride to be technical?
To confirm that a board can be technical even though its volume is higher, I went on and tried a 2014 73L 54cm Angulo Chango. It's the smallest board I have ever sailed both in terms of volume and width. Despite the wind being light for such a board with my weight (70kgs), the volume is distributed out back so it isn't as technical as the numbers suggest. A 21.5cm fin was fitted on it, which was much too big for the board... |
Naaaah. It's still all about choice. I still prefer the extra drive, traction, security in nasty chop, and bottom cranking ability of about 22-23 cm even at 65 liters ... less if I also have thrusters or am consistently powered on a 3.x sail.
I had never thought about sailing small boards as "technical", but in the sense that one has to pay attention to them when underpowered, that's probably true. For me, on most days, that's a small price to pay for the complete mindless abandon even in really rough terrain with which they can be sailed when powered up or overpowered.
Furthermore, it seems to me that both wide and narrow boards have their own set of technical demands. For a given volume, wide (thus short) boards require greater attention to keep their noses above the fray as your photo illustrated, while longer/narrower boards let us relax more -- maybe even gawk at Mt. Hood -- when pushing the envelope in rough water. At the other end of the power range and the hull, skinny tails are more demanding when underpowered. Solutions include more power, more TOW, bigger or more fins, and enough personal flotation to relax when resting in the water during extended lulls. Wider boards often demand pronounced weight shifts, maybe even relocating our back foot, if we want maximum g’s; on narrower boards we just twitch our strapped-in back toes. To me, in rough water, floatier tails feel like some cumbersome and corky external piece of equipment while smaller tails feel more like part of me.
| manuel wrote: | | I liked the all-around wave boards the best. |
With a caveat, that's where I've settled, too, despite very rarely sailing in what you ocean-dwellers call "waves". That caveat, and my hard requirement, is that they must also excel in slashy B&J mode with a great deal of speed, precision, comfort, and control, a minimum of thought or effort, and no possibility of pearling. That's where narrow seems to excel for me (and the Boards Magazine staff and many other riders I talk to).
| manuel wrote: | | I found the Evo, the Acid and the NewWave Twin to be the most technical boards. In the volume I tried probably better suited for someone heavier or better skilled than me. |
You beat me by far on skills, but even with 20 kg more weight than you, I found my 80L Evo to be a laid-back, no-brainer, skatey pair of slippers when powered very modestly but a bouncy attention-hog when powered up in B&J mode.
| manuel wrote: | Multi-fin thoughts:
I had always been fan of riding the smallest fin possible on any board. Basically go as low as I can until spin-out becomes an issue. This allowed greater speed, maximize maneuverability, and help with very short turns. However, it does cost some upwind reaching angle and this is when the side fins come into play. They help getting back the angle that was lost and add grip. Multi fins also help with securing the carve at the bottom turn, while a small single can more easily be upset by chop or user error, a thruster will carve the turn slicing the water with immense grip, it's an amazing feeling. |
I think you’re on the right track. I DEMAND upwind ability because of how and where I sail; I love speed; my heavy back foot demands traction; and my endless high-g turns in excessive chop sometimes overpower small fins … until I back them up with thrusters. Even the smallest thrusters, if designed and placed properly on the right hull, let me immediately use MUCH smaller main fins for less overall (perceived) drag and even greater confidence and g’s when cutting back uphill at mid-face in chop.
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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Some nice photos from Master of the Ocean at Encuentro.
The 2010 Quad:
The 2012 Evo:
Not me in the pictures but same exact boards I tried.
We had wind today and it's quite amazing the difference a few knots can have on a board. Technique changes too. 15-20 knots with 10-knot holes is much different than 20-25 knots with 15-knot holes riding 5.x sails on 80L boards.
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U2U2U2
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW
if you want good to better upwind but you like the quick loose turn of the twin, set up a tri fin with similar sizes fins, take a bot to figure out the size.
I think the 2011/12 Quads by Starboard are much better than the 2010s
shape is similar but the slotboxes make so many more fin combos.
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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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I agree. After getting a 21-28 knots yesterday, the 15-20 knot requirements are definitely not the same as 21-28... My 86L Acid still didn't go even in with a very powered 5.0, it feels like it's unwilling to release. It's true for planing, jumping and even setting up for a top turn. So slow!
I have a 2007 Goya Freewave 77L which is very easy to sail, to slog, to jump but is bouncy at the jibe. Only surfs well in small waves. I'll try it out today dialing in a few things to see what I can do with it. Maybe I could set it up as a tri, would slow it down a bit and gain looseness?
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20946
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Your assessment seems to agree quite well with this one:
But I'm here to tell ya that MANY wave boards of that era and size are marvelous performers in the 4.2 to 5.2 range. You just have to find the right 20 or 30 of them.
Mike \m/
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U2U2U2
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
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Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| manuel wrote: |
I have a 2007 Goya Freewave 77L which is very easy to sail, to slog, to jump but is bouncy at the jibe. Only surfs well in small waves. I'll try it out today dialing in a few things to see what I can do with it. Maybe I could set it up as a tri, would slow it down a bit and gain looseness? |
my 2¢ It may change the character some by adding side fins, for a tri, may.
It will become looser , it will be better upwind, BUT you wont change the overall characteristics , cause they are defined by too many other things, bottom shape, rocker. bouncy improvement maybe
I would prefer a candidate to add side fins to be a USBox , cause you then have a fin you can move fore & aft. I have done 2 that have had power box, and I was pleased, more so with some adjust-ability , you can counter this some by using side fin boxes that DO have some movement to move the cluster closer or further apart.
It nay very well be a good board to play with, and see if you like the tri fin feeling, you can certainly use different size fins for different feels.
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