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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 8887
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. The questions are: can we rapidly increase the efficiency of EV's? Hopefully yes. Is relying on domestically produced natural gas , both Geopolitically palatable , and cleaner than refining, and burning crude? yes , I believe so. Can we produce ample amounts of electricity through alternative means? Yes I think so.

"Colossal toxic waste" like The Exxon Valdez . or Bhopal . Or ..... fill in the blanks.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 13733
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
CB, Agreed on all counts. Absent a Damascene conversion of the environmental lobby and lawmakers on nuclear, a huge increase in EVs will move hydrocarbons from fuel tanks to natural gas power plants; coal plants will also increase. There are efficiencies in central power generation, but there are also significant transmission losses. The grid will need a complete overhaul. Conveniently out of site will be the massive mining operations to find the minerals needed for batteries/ solar panels/ wind turbines. China currently has a stranglehold on the global supply of many of those minerals; we've seen what happens when a hostile nation can use that kind of leverage. And then, of course, there is the colossal toxic waste involved in those mining operations and in the disposal of huge batteries, solar panels and turbine blades. Some of this can be overcome; the cost will be astronomical.

There are no simple solutions as some would like to believe.


wrong, I did a cost analysis on public data when Boulder City Nevada put in the first solar concentrating plant. Experimental costs generally can be cut by significant amounts with scaling. At the time Bush had invaded Ira over lies and we were spending an estimated 1-2 trillion though Bush Cheney said it would be hundred or so billion.

anyway with the costs of the bolder City experiment and the actual generation, if we would have spent that 1 trillion at the experimental costs not volume reductions in costs well every household in the USA would have free electricity for 30 and if as resilient as it should be 60-90 years. . But now the estimates are 3-6 trillion cost for going to iraq on lies. So in essence we would have all businesses with free electricity as well a glut for expansion.

The lies for Iraq and the lies by the oil hired liars have cost the usa dearly...

_________________
when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4195

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baja. I don’t think I’m wrong about all this. If demand were flat and did not consider the increases necessary to convert to EV use, getting us to a carbon free (not counting nuclear) electric grid is a pipe dream. Sure, Boulder Nevada might be able to supply enough electricity using solar. I get ALL of my electricity (net producer). But, when the sun goes down, I’m on the grid with everybody else. Boulder Nevada and Durango Colorado are blessed with LOTS of sunny days too.

Im not claiming a carbon free energy system is not possible. Advances in storage batteries could reduce costs both in dollars and environmental damage.

The issue is that increased worldwide demand is likely going to severely impact the gains we can make on reducing carbon by development of renewables. I’d like to see the numbers presented if I’m wrong. But, we can’t even keep up with the production of copper needed for the electric motors in the short term.

I can’t find an EV or solar panels for a project. We can’t get the new high tech electric heating systems on board in houses and commercial buildings I’m designing. We are forging ahead with business as usual. It will be decades before the investment capital will be available to revamp away from carbon.
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J64TWB



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1685

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://thehill.com/policy/equilibrium-sustainability/3567768-solar-power-is-helping-texas-keep-its-air-conditioning-amid-brutal-temperatures/
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5171

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:
"Colossal toxic waste" like The Exxon Valdez.

Finding and producing oil and gas is a difficult and dangerous business which the US O&G industry executes with exceptionally efficiency. Transporting the product provides an additional layer of risk; shipping by tankers like the Valdez being among the riskiest. About 250K barrels were spilled in Valdez. That is one sixth of the oil that California imports via vessel every single day rather than developing its own resources. The Valdez was headed for California.

However, these are rare occurrences. The huge environmental impact from minerals extraction occurs every day as a routine part of the process. That's why Nevada residents are vigorously opposing lithium mining expansion. Mining for rare earths is worse. The disposal of these green energy "solutions" is already rearing its ugly head.

The point is, so-called "clean" energy is nothing of the sort, so we should think long and hard before charging into massive expenditures on alternate energy sources which bring their own array of problems.

https://unctad.org/news/developing-countries-pay-environmental-cost-electric-car-batteries
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3360

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
The point is, so-called "clean" energy is nothing of the sort, so we should think long and hard before charging into massive expenditures on alternate energy sources which bring their own array of problems.


Do you mean like fracking?

Coachg
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 8887
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
mrgybe wrote:
The point is, so-called "clean" energy is nothing of the sort, so we should think long and hard before charging into massive expenditures on alternate energy sources which bring their own array of problems.


Do you mean like fracking?

Coachg


Fracking is a joke. Super risky, super expensive. There's a reason most Texas based E & P's divested out of the Bakken .. I have a client in Eastern Utah that is also bankrupt.

Mr . G.. I agree with you but to minimize the dangers of carbon extraction and transportation is not a balanced argument. I am rooting for a greener future, cleaner, and less reliance on the country that hatched 15 of the 9/11 hijackers .. In spite of Mr. Trump hosting them this weekend in New Jersey....
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4195

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because of fracking, Colorado has closed many of its coal burning power plants. The largest plant is scheduled to be closed in a few years.

When I first moved to Western Colorado, I got a job with an Electrical Production and Transmission Utility. I designed power lines for a couple years and was a project engineer during installation. At the time, we were designing a grid to move electricity from the coal plants of northern Colo and Wyoming to markets in Calif and Nevada.

The process to site a new power line is onerous. Nobody wants a big power line in their view. I attended dozens of meetings on a single powerline. When someone easily tosses out words like “updating the electrical grid”, my PTSD kicks in.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 8887
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB...Is that huge Coal facility west of Steamboat still there? Near Craig I believe..
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4195

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boggsman

Emotionally, I agree that clean energy is our future. But, fracking produces 2/3 of the natural gas used in this country right now. The cost to convert a house heating system to electricity from natural gas is about $15000. This electricity (from green sources) will have to include the costs of new transmission lines. And, while ultimately green energy may be competitive, the facility costs will be substantial.

So, we gotta ask our burgeoning senior population, who haven’t saved enough, to commit to new heating systems and higher fuel costs?
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