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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't mean to blow my top, but those of us at ground level atre fed up of being politically driven up what appear to be blind alleys.

I agree that the sheer number of cars in our small over crowded island is now a major environmental issue. The roads in all our towns and cities are now close to grid locked. The consequent pollution from petrol and diesel engines is definitely a problem which has to be tackled.

Electric cars would solve the pollution problem (Provided the power stations were non polluting) IF the downside of using them can be effectively overcome. The main charging problem, as I said, is the countless thousands of cars in towns and cities which have to be parked out on the roads. A solution to safely and securely charging them has to be found.

My new car is a Suzuki super-mini hybrid 1.4 litre petrol engine car with self charging battery. (from slowing and braking.) It is class leading in low emissions and though not non polluting, if all petrol and diesel cars were as efficient as it, it would halve the pollution problem we currently face. It easily averages over 60 miles per gallon at normal 50 to 60 m.p.h. driving speeds.

Meanwhile, as you say, oil is indeed here to stay for some while yet.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2295
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
When on a lengthy road trip to a destination (e.g., driving the 1300 miles to Hood River ... more if passing through San Francisco ... from Albuquerque 6 times one summer, driving to Corpus or Florida, driving to Nova Scotia repeatedly from upstate New York), my gas stops consisted of skidding to a halt, gripping the gas nozzle tightly to maximize its flow rate, jumping back in and hauling ass 'til the gauge was shouting "STOP! STOP!" again, and repeating until a) I encountered wind on water, b) I reached a site of interest short of my destination, or c) I arrived. I or we would commonly cover thousands of miles in a one-week/9-day vacation because it was that far, driving was fun then, there are always fun things to see and do on the way, and there's usually wind on the way there. Flying misses all that.

Many of our trips were into the Utah and Arizona back country in a decked-out 4X4 with two large internal gas tanks and four 5-gallon jerry cans of gas strapped across the back (no one tailgated us). We'd travel for days without seeing even one man-made structure, often submerging those (obviously well-sealed) internal tanks (once my butt) in river crossings.

Those great trips would have been and still are impossible with an electric vehicle. Hell, just driving to sail or to a swap meet in Hood River would be impractical, inefficient, maybe even impossible in a van full of gear without wasting hours at a charging station. I get that many people spend most of their lives within 50 miles of home, surrounded by charging stations and their home port. Fine; go electric and the hell with the pollution and Chinese sourcing of your batteries. But for the rest of us, the ideological greenies can shove their misled AGWA mandates where solar power don't work. Maybe some day we can function fully on nuclear fusion, wind, sunshine, political gasbags, Chinese batteries, hydropower, etc., but mandating them before the technology is mature is insane.


Iso, your two examples (high-mile highway sprints and off-road distance trips) are about as extreme you could possible pick to prove a point. They illustrate little more than claiming running for fitness isn't worth it because it won't take you past 30 miles nor work well in the Arizona outback.

I do agree that mandating large-scale change causes hiccups and growing pains, but it is not insane. Doing so in the private sector is called market-making, and companies make markets by riding waves of legislation.

I also agree that battery technology comes at a different but significant environmental cost, yet so does manufacturing internal combustion engines. The issue is for you, apparently, may be the tipping point. When does the electric motor-driven vehicle pollute less than the same but using ICE? Electric motors are more efficient than every gasoline engine ever made available. So it comes down to the carbon footprint of each alternative.

Electrical grids are transforming but using point-generation to among other things, create more efficient grids, counter voltage drop and introduce high voltage service to residential communities.

FYI, while it won't satisfy everyone needing to gas-and-go, DC charging can presently provide well over 500 miles of charge in 30 minutes depending on the connector. Not only is that a greater distance than most passenger cars could ever travel between fill-ups, but you can easily get 250 miles in about 10 minutes. Again, humans do need pit stops, and most cannot comfortably do so on the roadside so most distance drivers stop at least once every four hours or so. Range anxiety will soon be a thing of the past, like exposed ends of guardrail.

We are not anywhere close yet, but it is estimated that 90% of federal highways will employ induction charging by 2035, reducing further the carbon footprint of individual vehicles.

The market is here, the decisions are made. Damn, the one car company known worldwide for their amazing engines, Alfa Romeo, will go all electric by 2030. The worm has turned.

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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4188

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that expanding a personal experience to a global solution may not be appropriate. But…

I have enough excess power on my office solar panel system to easily charge an electric vehicle along with all my electric needs. I installed excess capacity with the idea that some day I could power my work/ski car with carbon low fuel. Right now, the glitch is down to cost and availability of an all wheel drive electric car. I believe I will be able to purchase this vehicle soon.

Now… my long distance Sprinter and my desert camping rig will, likely, be a decade before electricity is feasible. And, there will be no way I will be able to purchase replacement electric vehicles due to the capital cost of the new machines.

Petroleum is here to stay for a long time. The practicality for many of us to switch to electric with our specialty vehicles just won’t be there.

But, we can each do a bit to reduce consumption. Drive that big rig slower and make less trips. Maybe consider a vehicle such as GTs or an EV for everyday driving. The solution isn’t an immediate retooling. It is a phased in process…or should be.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could this be Iso? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YFz5c-DJu0


Coachg
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5151

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
mrgybe wrote:
Who is suggesting that we "just blow off renewables"


Many conservatives; especially in Texas. They tried lamely to blame last years electric grid failure on wind production. You can be pro oil, but to try to lie or misrepresent renewables is, well, that's Fox news; professional liars.

Coachg

That's the second time you have called me a liar. Please be specific, what was the lie and how have I misrepresented renewables? Thank you.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20779

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These clowns have called me a liar literally thousands of times over the decades. Back when I mistook them for adults, I challenged them scores of times to back it up. Not ONCE, in all these years, has any of them been able to support such a claim. They very seldom even tried, knowing they could not, and recent glimpses show no change. Like the term, "racist", calling others a "liar" is nothing more to them than chewing with their mouths open, reflecting 100% on themselves rather than on the person with whom they disagree. Sadly, their disagreement is usually based on their ignorance and/or their ideology rather than facts. They -- and anyone who demands that they back up their accusations -- define "insanity" even better than Einstein, et.al., did.

mrgybe wrote:
That's the second time you have called me a liar. Please be specific, what was the lie and how have I misrepresented renewables? Thank you.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17181
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No response from nutty Techno. Nothing to say about the real issues involved with Diablo Canyon? No talking points have been provided by your right wing sites? Can't answer the questions, or won't?
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5151

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, A different perspective...........

DanWeiss wrote:
I also agree that battery technology comes at a different but significant environmental cost, yet so does manufacturing internal combustion engines. The issue is for you, apparently, may be the tipping point. When does the electric motor-driven vehicle pollute less than the same but using ICE? Electric motors are more efficient than every gasoline engine ever made available. So it comes down to the carbon footprint of each alternative.

One point of reference. Volvo produces both an ICE and EV version of their C40 car. They studied the greenhouse gas emissions produced during manufacturing and found that the EV version produces 70% more GHG. Their study estimated that it could take up to 70,000 miles before parity would be obtained with the ICE vehicle.
https://insideevs.com/news/549267/manufacturing-evs-70percent-more-emissions/

DanWeiss wrote:
FYI, while it won't satisfy everyone needing to gas-and-go, DC charging can presently provide well over 500 miles of charge in 30 minutes depending on the connector.........Range anxiety will soon be a thing of the past, like exposed ends of guardrail.

The only vehicle (of which I am aware) which comes close to that is the Lucid Air Dream.........a steal at $170K. Most are EPA rated in the low to mid 200s. However, numerous tests reveal that these vehicles achieve 20 - 30% less than the EPA rating in cold weather. So, real range of 130 to 190 which is reduced further if one adheres to the recommended 80% charging. Here's one test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LWL90paufE

DanWeiss wrote:
The market is here, the decisions are made. Damn, the one car company known worldwide for their amazing engines, Alfa Romeo, will go all electric by 2030. The worm has turned.

With respect, the rosy outlook for EVs and for solar/ wind power, does not seem to acknowledge the massive mining for raw materials that will be required, or the control that China and other bad actors have over those key ingredients. Neither does it acknowledge that the principal energy source for recharging these hundreds of millions of EVs will be carbon energy........that's if you have access to charging at home, or can find a charging station on the road that doesn't have five others waiting. I remain unconvinced.
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5151

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
I didn't mean to blow my top, but those of us at ground level are fed up of being politically driven up what appear to be blind alleys.

GT, You are right to be furious. Ignorant politician are driving ill-considered policies for their own political gain, not to improve your life. Boris seems to have gone off the rails with his totally unrealistic green agenda, German industry will be hit hard by the imbecilic policies of their leaders, and Biden continues to rail against oil and gas while heading to Saudi Arabia to beg them to increase production. They should all be thrown out and replaced by anyone with common sense.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3327

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
coachg wrote:
mrgybe wrote:
Who is suggesting that we "just blow off renewables"


Many conservatives; especially in Texas. They tried lamely to blame last years electric grid failure on wind production. You can be pro oil, but to try to lie or misrepresent renewables is, well, that's Fox news; professional liars.

Coachg

That's the second time you have called me a liar. Please be specific, what was the lie and how have I misrepresented renewables? Thank you.


Interesting. It's in black & white above. Should be easy to read. I'll try again.

I’ll be specific. If you are “many conservatives”, or if you are specifically one of the “especially in Texas” conservatives, or if you work for “Fox news” who were blaming the failure of the power grid during the big freeze in Texas on renewables, then that is when you were specifically lying.

You are welcome.

You are in error sir; that is the third or fourth time I’ve called you out for lying. You lied when you said I had never been to the deep south, you lied when you said my wife’s close friend didn’t get harassed in the south for being Asian and I’m sure there are a few other times I have called you out.

Coachg
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