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Pipe dream? Obamacare
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4651

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having started my Saturday morning in the Kaiser emergency room after an ambulance ride, this is all a little more pertinent to me. There is a level of pain associated with back spasms that means you are not going to shop for health care or an ambulance ride.

Too much of what passes for commentary on this subject, particulary from NW30 and mrgybe is rank amateurism, filtered through Obama hatred. Neither, when challenged, will give you any specific criticisms of the health care bill that, if fixed, would have justified the bill. Of course Mike Fick is bat-shit crazy--and they all rely on Faux news without really understanding the underlying issues. Particularly amateurish is the Gybster's (aka oily knickers) reliance on amateurs in politics for better results.

The main reason that I supported Obama during the 2008 primary was that I thought he would be less galvanizing of political animosity than a Clinton, and better able to stand up to Big Pharma, than Hillary, who had taken a ton of Big Pharma money. It turns out that partisan stemmed from the Republicans, who were willing to attack a moderate Democrat even more violently than a Clinton, even over a Republican initiated health care bill.

Let's take a brief look at the politics of the possible. I have little doubt that Obama would not have had to make the deals he did with Big Pharma and Big Insurance on the health care bill if any two or three of the Republicans in the Senate had been willing to come across the aisle. Several of the Republican Senators, for example Olympia Snow were smarter, more ethical, and far less beholding to big pharma than the Democrat Senators that Obama had to keep in line with a straight up party line vote. But none were willing to cross party discipline. That party discipline relied on defeating Obama on health care to make him a one-term President, rather than doing their jobs as representatives to make the bill, and their actual leverage on the bill, a politically viable, bi-partisan effort. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of Obama's efforts to reach across the aisle, or the veracity of the statements by Republicans that no amendments acceptable to most of the Democrats would garner a single vote.

Thus Obama had to force a vote on the health care bill as a part of an existing bill to skirt the Senate's ability to let a minority prevent a vote on the Bill. And in order to keep Democrats in line, Obama had to make deals on mandatory coverage and cost control that made the bill palatable to Big Pharma and Big Insurance, who stand to make more money.

It is entirely fair to say that you disagree with those deals. The calculation made was that later cost controls, and inevitable tinkering with the bill, would make improvements. Conservatives have ample support for arguing that some bills never get better, and some ideas, like price support for agriculture in the Depression, get worse and are impossible to kill. Yet that would be a complicated argument--heavily fact dependent--and might require specifics in either Congress--or in on-line forums. Neither are forthcoming.

I cannot know the motives of the knuckledraggers here, just their cowardice when asked for specifics. It may well be that they hate something other than the color of the President's skin. They just haven't yet been told by Fox what that might be.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 4651

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did I mention the utter cowardice of the righties, who remain unwilling--or incapable--of an actual discussion of the merits of health care reform? The intellectal contribution of NW30? Insults, without substance. Feel free to look it up, or the simple fact that most white males vote Republican and essentially no longer buy books. Are these two things related?

Waiting for a substantive response from the bullies who are, at heart, cowards.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1349

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of us are smart enough to know when it's time to stop banging our heads against the brick wall. THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN PRESENT/DOCUMENT THAT WILL CHANGE YOUR MINDS. It's either conservative talking points or "lies" from right wing publications, talk shows or TV news, so I at least see that any rational debate is a fruitless venture.

Obama won, so now we have to wait and see how things work out. Right or wrong/good or bad, "the proof will be in the pudding", so I for one will wait to see if the ACA, as well as the other liberal doctrines work as well as you think they will.

Conceptually, the ACA has a lot of good things, and some not so good. My opinion, as it always has been, is that given the complexity of the program, and the ineptness of our government (national & state) the program will not be managed in a fair and cost effective way, and it will turn out to be a rather big nail in our country's debt crisis coffin. I hope I am wrong, but no one can predict how this will turn out in the next ten years.

Using "bullies & cowards" as bait is rather juvenile, don't you think?
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2355

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN PRESENT/DOCUMENT THAT WILL CHANGE YOUR MINDS. It's either conservative talking points or "lies" from right wing publications, talk shows or TV news, so I at least see that any rational debate is a fruitless venture.

Techno, think back a few years to a time when much of this started.

Do you remember the crap that Betsy McCaughey said about Obamacare"? Do you remember all the wild claims she made? Do you remember all the inflammatory rhetoric from a certain rabid rightie dumbo named Palin? Remember DEATH PANELS?

The real question is, whose mind needs to be changed?


techno900 wrote:
...and the ineptness of our government (national & state) the program will not be managed in a fair and cost effective way, and it will turn out to be a rather big nail in our country's debt crisis coffin. I hope I am wrong, but no one can predict how this will turn out in the next ten years.

Yes, well........ perhaps you can look at a pilot of "Obamacare" to see how it has worked and how it has served the taxpayers.

Look at Romneycare in Massachusetts.

Here's a quote: "The cost of health care premiums for individuals who buy insurance without the help of an employer have gone down dramatically. According to FactCheck.org, individuals who bought insurance on their own “saw a major drop in premiums, as much as a 40% decline, according to some figures.” On average, premiums dropped between 18%-20% for the average individual buying health insurance on their own."

And another: "RomneyCare remains exceptionally popular among state residents. Studies repeatedly confirm that 67-84% of Massachusetts residents are happy with the plan and would not go back to the old system if given the chance."

These are from a Mitt Romney Website: http://mittromneycentral.com/resources/romneycare/

So, who do you believe? Do you believe the right wing echo chamber bubble and Fox, or do you believe Mitt Romney?
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5448

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900, while you still seem to want to paint a gloomy picture, I have to say that your "so now we have to wait and see how things work out" outlook appears to me to be an improvement. It signifies a certain degree of acceptance. Indeed, we will all have to see how things work out. At this juncture, I would like to remain positive and hope for improvement. In the end, I think we can all can agree on the need for improvement.

Regarding your first paragraph above, you have to remember that much of the dialog coming from the right has been so patently negative and hateful. particularly about President Obama and his administration. Why would those of us on the left find that kind of dialog or arguments to be a sound path to changing our minds? Also, you have to remember that much of the source material that many of you have posted here comes from the more extreme voices from the right that don't offer much in the way of balance or fairness.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13286

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
Some of us are smart enough to know when it's time to stop banging our heads against the brick wall. THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN PRESENT/DOCUMENT THAT WILL CHANGE YOUR MINDS.

Don't forget that when you, and MrGybe, and others came here thinking you'd change that, I told you so. Wink

And don't forget ... we're ANGRY, rrrrrrrrrrrrrAAcist, bullies and cowards who insult their wives.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2355

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

And don't forget ... we're ANGRY, rrrrrrrrrrrrrAAcist, bullies and cowards who insult their wives.

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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3021

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The readers here do learn something when substance is presented.
Since the advent of the "conservative entertainment network " it is possible to hear outrageous nonsense everyday.
Many conservatives have realized they are being misinformed about most issues almost nonstop. Me and mine now have been pushed over to Factcheck.
Try it. You may be surprised at how much sense the real world makes.
Your opinion will get more respect.
You will also be amazed at how many libs agree with all your base principles once you stop assigning foolish ideas to them they find laughable.
Read iso for few minutes and think
" Do people who hear me think I am that screwed up?"
If you would rather they think
" I always disagreed with that but he sure makes a well informed case to support it" then you will have to give up Drudge, Limbaugh,Fox, and MSNBC
and read PolitiFact.
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scottwerden



Joined: 11 Jul 1999
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

I now have my own concealed carry permit and spend hundreds of hours....


Mike, you have been known for years on a variety of forums for being a little intense and emotional about your views on, well, everything. To hear that you are now carrying a concealed weapon is not good. This has nothing to do with so-called "gun rights" it has to do with whether it is wise for someone who seems constantly on the verge of going postal to be hefting a deadly weapon. I am pretty sure nobody here (well, not me at least) is a threat to your well being. Do you really need to be packing? Or is it those jerks who don't know ROW at the Hatch you are getting ready for? At any rate, I see more bad than good coming from this.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13286

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottwerden wrote:
Mike, you have been known for years on a variety of forums for being a little intense and emotional about your views on, well, everything. To hear that you are now carrying a concealed weapon is not good. This has nothing to do with so-called "gun rights" it has to do with whether it is wise for someone who seems constantly on the verge of going postal to be hefting a deadly weapon. I am pretty sure nobody here (well, not me at least) is a threat to your well being. Do you really need to be packing? Or is it those jerks who don't know ROW at the Hatch you are getting ready for? At any rate, I see more bad than good coming from this.

Being "known ... for intensity and emotion ... on the verge of going postal" and being accused of same (and of racism, bigotry, hatred, anger, baseless personal attacks, insulting coboardhead's wife, lying, etc.) are completely unrelated concepts. I'm amazed that you're among the handful of idiots who believe those libelous charges. (Years ago, when I thought their charges were based on ignorance, I disproved them by the hundreds. Now that we know they're simply how the left operates, intelligent people pay no attention to them.) If nothing else, one would think that my willingness to filter thousands of libelous comments and ignore hundreds more that I CAN see, plus the new fact that I've never been involved in even one fist fight in my life, would hint that I'm pretty level headed.

Another example: show us where I've ever said I carry a weapon on me? (Tip: don't waste your time. I've never said it, anywhere, any time.)

Let me guess: you believe 10% of what you hear on BSNBC and 50% of what Obama says, despite hard proof to the contrary.
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