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techno900

Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:00 am Post subject:

Part of the withdrawal timeline from: https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/

I wonder what would have happened if Biden has stuck with Trump's agreement of the May 1 withdrawal? When the US and Afghan forces still had control of Bagram air field, Kabul and the Kabul airport. With the rapid escalation of the Taliban takeover, it seemed logical to get out sooner than later. Not surprisingly, anything Trump planned was nixed by Biden - big mistake.

Quote:

March 25 — During a press conference at the White House, Biden says “it’s going to be hard to meet the May 1 deadline. Just in terms of tactical reasons, it’s hard to get those troops out.” He assures that “if we leave, we’re going to do so in a safe and orderly way.” Without committing to a pullout date, Biden says, “it is not my intention to stay there for a long time. But the question is: How and in what circumstances do we meet that agreement that was made by President Trump to leave under a deal that looks like it’s not being able to be worked out to begin with? How is that done? But we are not staying a long time.”

April 14 — Saying it is “time to end the forever war,” Biden announces that all troops will be removed from Afghanistan by Sept. 11.

In a speech explaining the decision, Biden says he became convinced after trip to Afghanistan in 2008 that “more and endless American military force could not create or sustain a durable Afghan government.” Biden says the U.S. achieved its initial and primary objective, “to ensure Afghanistan would not be used as a base from which to attack our homeland again” and that “our reasons for remaining in Afghanistan are becoming increasingly unclear.”

Biden says he “inherited a diplomatic agreement” between the U.S. and the Taliban that all U.S. forces would be out by May 1. “It is perhaps not what I would have negotiated myself, but it was an agreement made by the United States government, and that means something,” Biden says, adding that final troop withdrawal would begin on May 1.

“We will not conduct a hasty rush to the exit,” Biden says. “We’ll do it responsibly, deliberately, and safely.” Biden assures Americans that the U.S. has “trained and equipped a standing force of over 300,000 Afghan personnel” and that “they’ll continue to fight valiantly, on behalf of the Afghans, at great cost.”

April 15 — In response to Biden’s decision to delay full withdrawal until Sept. 11, the Taliban releases a statement that says failure to complete the withdrawal by May 1 “opens the way for [the Taliban] to take every necessary countermeasure, hence the American side will be held responsible for all future consequences.”

April 18 — In a released statement, Trump criticizes Biden’s Sept. 11 withdrawal deadline saying, “we can and should get out earlier.” He concludes, “Getting out of Afghanistan is a wonderful and positive thing to do. I planned to withdraw on May 1st, and we should keep as close to that schedule as possible.”

mrgybe

Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:05 am Post subject:

boggsman1 wrote:

So should you Mr. Gybe. You summarily dismiss January 6th as a tailgate party gone bad

Just saw this. Quote me or withdraw your fabrication.

boggsman1

Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9120
Location: at a computer

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:26 am Post subject:

mrgybe wrote:

boggsman1 wrote:

So should you Mr. Gybe. You summarily dismiss January 6th as a tailgate party gone bad

Just saw this. Quote me or withdraw your fabrication.

No problem. As soon as you withdraw your fake outrage regarding my response to Bard's post.

boggsman1

Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9120
Location: at a computer

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:31 am Post subject:

mrgybe wrote:

boggsman1 wrote:

Thankfully he never did.

Of course, I knew that the meetings never took place.........they were cancelled by Trump......but I wanted you to give an opportunity to consider how absurd it is to equate the utter shambles of the past couple of weeks with a meeting that never took place. Tens of thousands of Americans, other foreign nationals, and those who have served our efforts there, are trapped in Afghanistan and in fear of their lives. Desperate people are dropping from planes in front of the world, our allies are outraged by Biden's incompetent actions, China and Russia are crowing about our unreliability as partners, massive amounts of state-of-the-art equipment has been handed over to terrorists and on and on. We have been significantly weakened. If I were China, I would make a move on Taiwan today. Good luck getting an opposing international coalition together after this debacle. I think you would be wise to drop that line and move to patting your trembling lips with an embroidered hanky as you cite the marginally less absurd comparison to Jan 6. That's all you've got seven months into this disastrous Administration.

Here's your reference to Jan 6th, you claimed I "cited" a comparison. I did not. You never corrected yourself. You are a hypocrite with a bad memory.

mrgybe

Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:59 am Post subject:

coboardhead wrote:

I agree that the Biden Administration grossly underestimated the ability of the Afghan military to fight the Taliban even after being trained and supplied with arms and equipment for years.

Please don't suggest that I questioned the ability of the Afghan military to fight. I did not. About 60,000 Afghan military died over the last two decades supporting Allied operations, and their elite forces continued to support those operations to the end. The Afghan forces had the rug pulled out from under them. Two decades of support from the US and its allies was withdrawn, literally overnight. The US abandoned Bagram without even telling the Afghan commanders. So, not only did the US lose a heavily fortified base of operations with two military grade runways, from which to orchestrate an orderly evacuation, they completely undermined the resolve of the Afghan military. It was a pivotal decision which undoubtedly dramatically changed the nature of the withdrawal. This isn't hindsight, it should have been obvious to anyone who has experience of operations in 3rd world countries.
https://apnews.com/article/bagram-afghanistan-airfield-us-troops-f3614828364f567593251aaaa167e623

My friend and neighbor served this country for more than 30 years. The strain on his family during the decades he was in harms way on our behalf, and the toll on his mind and body, are beyond the comprehension of most. That ghastly little man in Berkeley who sneers at his opinions as those of just "another conservative who served in Afghanistan" are despicable. I hope that you also find that repulsive.

Last edited by mrgybe on Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:23 am; edited 2 times in total

mrgybe

Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:14 am Post subject:

boggsman1 wrote:

Here's your reference to Jan 6th, you claimed I "cited" a comparison. I did not. You never corrected yourself. You are a hypocrite with a bad memory.

Not only can you not support your assertion that I "summarily dismiss(ed) January 6th as a tailgate party gone bad".............because I didn't, that was a fabrication.........neither can you even read what I said about Jan 6. I did not claim you had cited a comparison to Jan 6, I said you should move to that from your ridiculous comparison with a meeting that never took place.

mrgybe wrote:

I think you would be wise to drop that line and move to patting your trembling lips with an embroidered hanky as you cite the marginally less absurd comparison to Jan 6.

So, since you haven't had the good grace to withdraw your fabrication, perhaps you will withdraw your bold assertion that I am a hypocrite with a bad memory. Thank you.

boggsman1

Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9120
Location: at a computer

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:40 am Post subject:

Ok, so I misread your Jan 6th post. I'm not sure what Jan 6th has to do with Afghanistan.

mrgybe

Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject:

Thank you, you have confirmed my long held belief that, underneath your myriad errors of judgment, you are a gentleman! It was others here that introduced Jan 6 into the Afghan withdrawal discussion. I agree with you.......it has no relevance to that discussion.

mac

Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17748
Location: Berkeley, California

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:23 pm Post subject:

mrgybe wrote:

coboardhead wrote:

I agree that the Biden Administration grossly underestimated the ability of the Afghan military to fight the Taliban even after being trained and supplied with arms and equipment for years.

Well, at least there was a citation, not just a biased opinion. The story is perhaps a little less clear and a little more nuanced. Here's the NYT story at the time, without spin, but highlighted.

Quote:

.S. Leaves Its Last Afghan Base, Effectively Ending Operations
With little fanfare, Bagram Air Base — once the military’s nerve center — was handed over to the Afghans, after nearly 20 years of waging war from the hub.

607

An American soldier in 2019 at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan.
An American soldier in 2019 at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan.Credit...Erin Schaff/The New York Times
Thomas Gibbons-Neff
By Thomas Gibbons-Neff
Published July 2, 2021
Updated July 4, 2021
KABUL, Afghanistan — American troops and their Western allies have departed the U.S. military base that coordinated the sprawling war in Afghanistan, officials said on Friday, effectively ending major U.S. military operations in the country after nearly two decades.

For generations of American service members, the military hub, Bagram Air Base, was a gateway to and from a war that cut across constant changes on the battlefield and in presidential administrations. But the final withdrawal overnight on Thursday occurred with little fanfare and no public ceremony, and in an atmosphere of grave concern over the Afghan security forces’ ability to hold off Taliban advances across the country.

The American exit was completed quickly enough that some looters managed to get into the base before being arrested, Afghan officials said.

The quiet leave-taking from the base weeks before the planned withdrawal of American troops in mid July, and months ahead of President’s Biden announced Sept. 11 departure, highlights Washington’s efforts to signal two different messages: one to the U.S. public that its longest foreign war is ending, and another to the Afghan government that the United States is not abandoning the country in the middle of a Taliban offensive, and would retain some ability to conduct airstrikes if need be.

“We are on track, exactly where we expected to be,” Mr. Biden told reporters at the White House on Friday.

The fear that Kabul could fall to the Taliban relatively soon haunted the administration’s debate over the decision to pull out of the country. But Mr. Biden suggested that even though the United States still retained the ability to conduct airstrikes if things went bad, no reversal of the withdrawal was on the table.

“We have worked out an over-the-horizon capacity,” he said, talking about air assets based in other places, “but the Afghans are going to have to do it themselves with the air force they have.”

Bagram was operating at full capacity until the end on Thursday. Fighter jets, cargo planes and surveillance aircraft relied on the twin runways until it was no longer feasible to keep them in the country.

Now, air support for the Afghan forces and overhead surveillance will be flown in from outside the country, from bases in Qatar or the United Arab Emirates, or from an aircraft carrier in the Arabian Sea. A contingent of 650 troops will remain to protect the American Embassy in Kabul, the capital. How long that type of support will continue is unclear, but the Pentagon has until Sept. 11 — when the American military mission is supposed to formally conclude — to decide.

The departure comes at a perilous time for Afghanistan.

Some U.S. intelligence estimates predict that the Afghan government could fall to its rivals, the Taliban, in from six months to two years after the Americans complete their withdrawal. The Taliban are inching closer to Kabul after having taken about a quarter of the country’s districts in the past two months.

Hundreds of members of the Afghan security forces have surrendered in recent weeks, while their counterattacks have taken back little territory from the Taliban. And as the Afghan forces fracture, regional militias have appeared with renewed prominence, in an echo of the country’s path toward civil war in the 1990s.

“Civil war is certainly a path that can be visualized,” the top American commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Austin S. Miller, told reporters on Tuesday.
Early Friday morning, looters entered the base, grabbing gas canisters and some laptops, said Darwaish Raufi, a district administrator for Bagram, adding that some were arrested by the police.

Mr. Raufi said the Americans had failed to coordinate their departure with the Afghan forces, leaving a gap in security at the base. But Col. Sonny Leggett, a spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan, said the transfer of the base had been “closely coordinated.”

Though the past 40 years of conflict in Afghanistan could be seen as civil war, a return to the fractious era of warlords and armed fiefs has long been feared.

With a line of snow-capped mountains as its backdrop, the Bagram airfield was built in the 1950s by the Soviet Union. It became a vital military hub during the Soviets’ 10-year occupation of Afghanistan. After the Soviets withdrew in 1989, the Taliban and what was known as the Northern Alliance fought for the base, sometimes with their trenches at either end.

When it invaded Afghanistan in 2001, after the Qaeda terrorist attacks in America, the United States inherited rubble at the Bagram site. In January 2002, when the first American service member killed by enemy fire, Sgt. First Class Nathan R. Chapman, was sent home, there were no American flags to drape on his coffin, so a flag patch from someone’s uniform had to suffice.

Understand the Taliban Takeover in Afghanistan
Card 1 of 6
Who are the Taliban? The Taliban arose in 1994 amid the turmoil that came after the withdrawal of Soviet forces from Afghanistan in 1989. They used brutal public punishments, including floggings, amputations and mass executions, to enforce their rules. Here’s more on their origin story and their record as rulers.

Who are the Taliban leaders? These are the top leaders of the Taliban, men who have spent years on the run, in hiding, in jail and dodging American drones. Little is known about them or how they plan to govern, including whether they will be as tolerant as they claim to be. One spokesman told The Times that the group wanted to forget its past, but that there would be some restrictions.

How did the Taliban gain control? See how the Taliban retook power in Afghanistan in a few months, and read about how their strategy enabled them to do so.

What happens to the women of Afghanistan? The last time the Taliban were in power, they barred women and girls from taking most jobs or going to school. Afghan women have made many gains since the Taliban were toppled, but now they fear that ground may be lost. Taliban officials are trying to reassure women that things will be different, but there are signs that, at least in some areas, they have begun to reimpose the old order.

What does their victory mean for terrorist groups? The United States invaded Afghanistan 20 years ago in response to terrorism, and many worry that Al Qaeda and other radical groups will again find safe haven there. On Aug. 26, deadly explosions outside Afghanistan’s main airport claimed by the Islamic State demonstrated that terrorists remain a threat.

How will this affect future U.S. policy in the region? Washington and the Taliban may spend years pulled between cooperation and conflict, Some of the key issues at hand include: how to cooperate against a mutual enemy, the Islamic State branch in the region, known as ISIS-K, and whether the U.S. should release $9.4 billion in Afghan government currency reserves that are frozen in the country.

By 2011, at the height of the American war, the air base had ballooned into a small city, with two runways, tens of thousands of occupants, shops and a U.S. military prison that became notorious. The thunder of jets and other aircraft, armed with hundreds of pounds of munitions that were dropped across the country, sometimes killing civilians, became a constant soundtrack for local residents throughout the conflict.

The base was also more violently attacked over the years, often by Taliban rockets and mortars, but sometimes by other means. In one of the worst strikes, in November 2016, a suicide bomber sneaked onto Bagram Air Base, hidden among a group of workers. The blast killed four Americans and wounded more than a dozen others.

Other foreign forces that helped guard the base as part of the U.S.-led coalition, like those from Georgia and the Czech Republic, saw their own casualties during their deployments.

In 2014, as the United States concluded its first official drawdown after the surge of troops in the years before — which brought the number of American and other international forces into the country to well over 100,000 — Bagram began to shrink.

Local contractors were fired, troops left and the surrounding town of the same name went into a downward economic spiral. Many residents had been reliant on the base for employment, and others had sorted through the camp’s refuse for goods that could be sold or shipped to Kabul.

On Friday, Zabihullah Mujahid, a Taliban spokesman, called the departure from Bagram a “positive step.”

With Bagram gone, what is left of the American forces in the country remain in Kabul. After General Miller leaves in the next several days, his authorities to carry out airstrikes against Al Qaeda and the Islamic State, and, in very limited circumstances, against the Taliban, will be assumed by Gen. Kenneth F. McKenzie Jr., the head of the military’s Central Command.

Rear Adm. Peter G. Vasely, a former member of SEAL Team 6, will be in charge of the security mission at the United States Embassy in Kabul, and will report to General McKenzie. Admiral Vasely, who is already in Kabul for the transition, will command the American troops that will be largely based at the embassy and remain there indefinitely.

Through September, General McKenzie will also be authorized to keep about 300 additional troops in Afghanistan, if needed for security, Pentagon officials said.

Coverage indicates that the base was to be handed over to the Afghan air force in a ceremony--hardly an indication of a surprise. I remain unconvinced that the forces left in Afghanistan when Biden took office were sufficient to maintain security both at Bagram and Karzai--as well as manage the repatriation of US citizens in Kabul.

The spin by the right here also ignores the aspects of the Trump deal that benefited the US--and were continued by Biden. There were no deaths of American troops at the hands of the Taliban once Trump had agreed to a withdrawal date of May 1, 2021. I give Trump's team credit for that, and Biden's team credit for continuing that aspect, and arranging with the Taliban for an extension of that date until September 1. What is clear, and ignored by the spin-meisters, is that any continuation of a US presence in Afghanistan after September 1 would have risked a return to a hot war--something untenable with only 2500 troops still on the ground. While keeping Bagram open would have allowed air strikes, that would certainly not have been sufficient, and more US lives would have been lost.

Mrgybe properly gives credit to the portion of Afghanistan forces that fought bravely to defend what they perceived as their country. But his logic fails when he faults the Biden administration for trusting them to continue that fight, and leaving them the equipment to do so.

spin, always spin.

boggsman1

Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9120
Location: at a computer

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:37 pm Post subject:

The pulse of the right is quite pleased. https://www.mediaite.com/politics/ann-coulter-effusively-praises-bidens-afghanistan-speech-unlike-trump-he-had-the-balls-to-withdraw/

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