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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 12205
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vote for exhibited vales like you mean it... specilly if you have a degree from trump university...
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LHDR



Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 511

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is shocking if mrgybe really believes in his strained argument, to the point that it elevates someone like Trump over Biden, rather than the simple explanation offered by coboardhead and others.

Perhaps some of the difference in understanding comes from the word "believe"? If Biden said, according to mrgybe, that he "believes human life commences at conception" and he believes that abortion will extinguish an innocent human life, I hear that Biden believes this, but does not know for sure, that he understands that many good people have different beliefs (and even good arguments supporting their beliefs), and then subordinates his belief in this complicated and painful matter to the wishes of others. Seems acceptable, even commendable if you are worried about the influence of religion in public life, and not uncommon as a compromise in politics. To mrgybe, believe may mean knowing with absolute certainty, which would make Biden's conflict more obvious.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 15697
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mrgybe is in the habit of making assumptions, or just assertions, about people's motives. Of course he does this as a way of claiming moral superiority and intellectual prowess. But it is the antithesis of reasoning--mrgybe is more interested in scoring points than in actually understanding anyone that does not share any of his views.

Of course, the first rule in dealing with other people and resolving conflicts in a healthy manner is first seeking to understand. Mrgybe would rather call those who disagree with him "latte sipping liberals" than make an attempt to understand their underlying value system and what aspects of that system he might share. This is also antithetical to the core values of Christianity, which holds that each person has a unique value and is special to god. We are all redeemable--perhaps even Trump.

I don't know Biden's underlying value system that allows him to work in a legal system that recognizes a right to abortion in the first trimester. I am equally sure that mrgybe has made no attempt to understand that value system. I do know for a moral certainty that Joe Biden's values are far more decent and closer to mine than Donald Trump's.
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wsurfer



Joined: 17 Aug 2000
Posts: 1130

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps mrgybe can reconcile how Trump can be on both sides of the fence at the same time?

Because the fetal cells used in developing Regeneron's antibody cocktail were originally derived from an abortion prior to the funding ban, a White House official told CBS News on Thursday that the therapeutic wasn't in violation of the administration's new policy.

You can have your cake and eat it too!
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justall



Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 429

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
Biden, on the other hand, believes that abortion is the taking of a human life.......the ultimate crime. It is impossible for me to support someone who states he holds that belief, yet will not only look the other way, but will actively support the procedure. What rationale can he possible have which persuades him that it is OK for others, who do not share his belief, to take a human life? The impact of that hypocrisy is, by his own admission, the loss of human life in huge numbers. So what you are comparing is boorish behavior which makes people angry, with a stunning lack of integrity which, by Biden's own definition, will cause human lives to be snuffed out. The greater character flaw is clear.

I am empathetic with your view and thought through your question. I use a different scoring rubric, which I will discuss in a moment. But using the one you proposed, to conclude Biden is hypocritical, I think it also requires the assumption that he himself believes his actions will directly cause deaths. You may feel he does, and if so, I find your argument is logical. But, I’m not so sure he believes that, as he is not the person choosing to have/perform an abortion and likely now believes rates decline through education, alternatives-awareness, and contraception access. I don’t believe he is making a show of religion, as he seems upfront about his beliefs and how he has tried to reconcile them with secular US equality laws and freedoms.

My own scoring system takes a broader view of the most important commandment to “love God and thy neighbor”. I feel arrogance, slander and deceit are not just rude but behaviors that make the World a much more dangerous place with human toll. President Trump’s behaviors have so flagrantly crossed the line for me, that my fellow conservatives need to know they cannot depend on my vote unless the top of the ticket has a candidate who at least tries to avoid the behaviors described in 2 Timothy 3 and elsewhere.

Anyway, I hope whoever wins recognizes the fiery anger in the nation and will work to unite us, not divide us further. It will take some compromising. Man, wouldn’t that be great.

swchandler wrote:
Yet, I have to ask, what you think of the many Republican politicians in Congress that have been subjects and followers of Donald Trump's willful siren song, and remain arguably divorced from the long held conservative principles and ideals of the Republican party? Should they be voted out too?

I’ve thought about this. Outside of my own area, I just do not know the Senate/House candidates well enough to weigh-in. I do feel the Senate has tremendous power that they could have, and should have, used to correct President Trump’s conduct along the way.

coboardhead wrote:
If we feel we can ask another Christian to justify his vote for a candidate who supports choice; isn't it fair game to ask how we justify our incredible wealth compared to the rest of humanity?

I think it is fair to ask. It makes us think … and makes us thankful.

mac wrote:
Matthew 7 :: NIV. "Do not judge, or you too will be judged

Yeah … something I think about, and sometimes difficult to follow.
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MalibuGuru



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 8758

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justall wrote:
mrgybe wrote:
Biden, on the other hand, believes that abortion is the taking of a human life.......the ultimate crime. It is impossible for me to support someone who states he holds that belief, yet will not only look the other way, but will actively support the procedure. What rationale can he possible have which persuades him that it is OK for others, who do not share his belief, to take a human life? The impact of that hypocrisy is, by his own admission, the loss of human life in huge numbers. So what you are comparing is boorish behavior which makes people angry, with a stunning lack of integrity which, by Biden's own definition, will cause human lives to be snuffed out. The greater character flaw is clear.

I am empathetic with your view and thought through your question. I use a different scoring rubric, which I will discuss in a moment. But using the one you proposed, to conclude Biden is hypocritical, I think it also requires the assumption that he himself believes his actions will directly cause deaths. You may feel he does, and if so, I find your argument is logical. But, I’m not so sure he believes that, as he is not the person choosing to have/perform an abortion and likely now believes rates decline through education, alternatives-awareness, and contraception access. I don’t believe he is making a show of religion, as he seems upfront about his beliefs and how he has tried to reconcile them with secular US equality laws and freedoms.

My own scoring system takes a broader view of the most important commandment to “love God and thy neighbor”. I feel arrogance, slander and deceit are not just rude but behaviors that make the World a much more dangerous place with human toll. President Trump’s behaviors have so flagrantly crossed the line for me, that my fellow conservatives need to know they cannot depend on my vote unless the top of the ticket has a candidate who at least tries to avoid the behaviors described in 2 Timothy 3 and elsewhere.

Anyway, I hope whoever wins recognizes the fiery anger in the nation and will work to unite us, not divide us further. It will take some compromising. Man, wouldn’t that be great.

swchandler wrote:
Yet, I have to ask, what you think of the many Republican politicians in Congress that have been subjects and followers of Donald Trump's willful siren song, and remain arguably divorced from the long held conservative principles and ideals of the Republican party? Should they be voted out too?

I’ve thought about this. Outside of my own area, I just do not know the Senate/House candidates well enough to weigh-in. I do feel the Senate has tremendous power that they could have, and should have, used to correct President Trump’s conduct along the way.

coboardhead wrote:
If we feel we can ask another Christian to justify his vote for a candidate who supports choice; isn't it fair game to ask how we justify our incredible wealth compared to the rest of humanity?

I think it is fair to ask. It makes us think … and makes us thankful.

mac wrote:
Matthew 7 :: NIV. "Do not judge, or you too will be judged

Yeah … something I think about, and sometimes difficult to follow.


You may not be able to stomach the best president in history, because many can't but 3 Nobel peace prize nominations, peace in the middle east NKorea sending best wishes, abortion, cleanest air and water in decades should easily put you over the top.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 15697
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People who watch Trump TV really believe the lies they post. Air is not better.

https://apnews.com/article/d3515b79af1246d08f7978f026c9092b

Trump rolls back water quality protections.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51225604

Fortunately the orange peril is so incompetent he keeps losing in court.


https://www.smdailyjournal.com/news/local/court-deals-blow-to-salt-pond-development-in-redwood-city/article_086074f8-078b-11eb-88b9-bb778093443d.html

Those pesky facts—and those that ignore them. Worst environmental record of any President since Nixon.
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vientomas



Joined: 25 Apr 2000
Posts: 1955

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MalibuGuru wrote:
justall wrote:
mrgybe wrote:
Biden, on the other hand, believes that abortion is the taking of a human life.......the ultimate crime. It is impossible for me to support someone who states he holds that belief, yet will not only look the other way, but will actively support the procedure. What rationale can he possible have which persuades him that it is OK for others, who do not share his belief, to take a human life? The impact of that hypocrisy is, by his own admission, the loss of human life in huge numbers. So what you are comparing is boorish behavior which makes people angry, with a stunning lack of integrity which, by Biden's own definition, will cause human lives to be snuffed out. The greater character flaw is clear.

I am empathetic with your view and thought through your question. I use a different scoring rubric, which I will discuss in a moment. But using the one you proposed, to conclude Biden is hypocritical, I think it also requires the assumption that he himself believes his actions will directly cause deaths. You may feel he does, and if so, I find your argument is logical. But, I’m not so sure he believes that, as he is not the person choosing to have/perform an abortion and likely now believes rates decline through education, alternatives-awareness, and contraception access. I don’t believe he is making a show of religion, as he seems upfront about his beliefs and how he has tried to reconcile them with secular US equality laws and freedoms.

My own scoring system takes a broader view of the most important commandment to “love God and thy neighbor”. I feel arrogance, slander and deceit are not just rude but behaviors that make the World a much more dangerous place with human toll. President Trump’s behaviors have so flagrantly crossed the line for me, that my fellow conservatives need to know they cannot depend on my vote unless the top of the ticket has a candidate who at least tries to avoid the behaviors described in 2 Timothy 3 and elsewhere.

Anyway, I hope whoever wins recognizes the fiery anger in the nation and will work to unite us, not divide us further. It will take some compromising. Man, wouldn’t that be great.

swchandler wrote:
Yet, I have to ask, what you think of the many Republican politicians in Congress that have been subjects and followers of Donald Trump's willful siren song, and remain arguably divorced from the long held conservative principles and ideals of the Republican party? Should they be voted out too?

I’ve thought about this. Outside of my own area, I just do not know the Senate/House candidates well enough to weigh-in. I do feel the Senate has tremendous power that they could have, and should have, used to correct President Trump’s conduct along the way.

coboardhead wrote:
If we feel we can ask another Christian to justify his vote for a candidate who supports choice; isn't it fair game to ask how we justify our incredible wealth compared to the rest of humanity?

I think it is fair to ask. It makes us think … and makes us thankful.

mac wrote:
Matthew 7 :: NIV. "Do not judge, or you too will be judged

Yeah … something I think about, and sometimes difficult to follow.


You may not be able to stomach the best president in history, because many can't but 3 Nobel peace prize nominations, peace in the middle east NKorea sending best wishes, abortion, cleanest air and water in decades should easily put you over the top.


If something about a Nobel Prize is your criteria, then you must lovvvveeee Obama. I'll see your 3 nominiations (clears throat) for one actual prize! LOL
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 15697
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No wonder Bard is panicking.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20004

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MalibuGuru wrote:
You may not be able to stomach the best president in history, because many can't but 3 Nobel peace prize nominations, peace in the middle east NKorea sending best wishes, abortion, cleanest air and water in decades should easily put you over the top.

And jobs
and
a strong military
and
climate sensibility
and
frequent backing by the Supremes
and
reversal of thousands of harmful wild-ass liberal executive orders and trade agreements
and
backing up all 50 states who had been directed by President Bush to restock on PPE for the next epidemic
and
calling out the fake news media for being 100% in the left's tank and
trying to make them, one by one, more aware of their extremism
and
answering thousands of media questions without a teleprompter
and
slowing down the illegal immigration invasion
and
standing tall against the socialist and fascist extremists pulling poor Joe Biden's strings
and
NOT saying half of what he has been accused of saying
and
on
and
on
and
on, for pages and pages and pages.

I recognize that religion and its dogma help billions of individuals in many ways, but believe they have almost no place in running a country, a war, or in Supreme Court decisions, let alone choosing a president. (No one denies, for example, that JFK was a more rampant horndog than Bill Clinton.) If nothing else, thumping one bible asserts that all other forms of religion are wrong. Tell that to the billions of people who have a different religion or none at all, and don't tell us any religion is anywhere nearly perfect.


Last edited by isobars on Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:31 pm; edited 3 times in total
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