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If still undecided with 2020 election
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16207
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claims like mrgybes, with false information, is the way that evangelicals virtue signal, and justify their acceptance of the lawlessness of the Trump administration. Anything is justified to realize a change in the Supreme Court to ban abortion absolutely.

When I was a kid in Catholic schools in the 1950's and 1960's, I was taught that "the end justifies the means" was the ideology of godless Communism. How times have changed.
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J64TWB



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1541

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An embryo is termed a fetus in the 11th week of pregnancy. A frozen embryo is not alive and is viable indefinitely. So start your argument in the 11th week.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16207
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The court specifically recognized 20 weeks--a distinction missing in the evangelicals efforts to prevent rather than minimize abortion.

The ironic thing is that evangelicals, particularly the right wing Catholics, have also tried to prevent access to contraceptives and the morning after pill--which both are more effective ways to reduce abortion than packing the court.
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justall



Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrgybe wrote:
Justall, I have never been a member of either party and have voted for both Republicans and Democrats. I did not vote for Trump. However, you started this thread by providing your opinions as a Christian. I am also a Christian, so, in the context of Christianity can I ask you a couple of questions?

- do you support the premise that it is a woman's right to abort her child, for any reason whatsoever, well beyond viability? Kamala Harris does.

- Biden has stated his belief that life begins at conception. He casts himself as a devout Catholic, but, despite the vehement opposition of that church to abortion, actively promotes abortion rights. Do you support a candidate that actively promotes a procedure that he believes results in the the taking a a human life? Is he not making the "show of religion"?

Sometimes we are faced with poor choices. I too dislike Trump's self absorption and arrogance, but doesn't that pale into insignificance when compared to the willingness of a candidate to promote what he believes is a fundamentally evil procedure?

I'm interested to hear your view. Thanks.

I am glad you asked. Believe me, I have struggled with this one and I have talked through it with a lot of folks. My brother voted for Trump in 2016 exactly because of his stance on abortion, even though he disliked Trump's behaviors. And, many of the folks in my church have asked about my view for the same reason. They asked me, "The Bible says we must not kill. So, donít we have to vote for conservative candidates, no matter how ungodly they behave, if they can overturn Roe v Wade?."

Here is how I have answered that: No. Indeed, we must not kill, and we must teach others of this commandment. But, it is by our example that others will follow. To my knowledge, nowhere in the Bible does it say we are free to act ungodly as long as that helps create secular laws that mimic the Bible. Must we also have a law to lock people in prison if they take the Lordís name in vain? No. We must try to abide by the commandments, absolutely.

I don't think there is anything wrong with secular laws that align with Biblical teachings, but I don't think we should support arrogant, slandering and deceitful conduct (behaviors that are the opposite of how we are to live) to achieve it. 2nd Timothy 3 tells us to avoid people acting this way, not make them our leaders, without exception.

How have you balanced the two?
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justall



Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vientomas wrote:
Pass the popcorn please.


This made me laugh so hard!
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10030

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What really worries me is when overzealous religious folks want everyone to adhere to their beliefs, and they actively strive to create laws to curb and restrict the freedom of others. Unfortunately, women have long suffered the greatest losses of freedom in their lives, and arguably a lot of it been deeply rooted in religious beliefs and legal restrictions. In today's world, I see no reason strip women of the rights that they have desperately fought for an eternity.

We have to remember throughout history that untold wars have been fought in the name of religion. The idea that religious folks are against killing just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I have to call BS on the current "sanctity of life" argument being promoted by religious zealots to target women.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 8572
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well stated Chandler. I was moved watching RBG argue an abortion case in front of the SCOTUS in the 1970's. 9 older men listening to the razor sharp reasoning of an diminutive women , as she won the important case. I too hope the law prevails over the desires of religious folks..those of us who are not invested in the religion of abortion shouldn't have to take a back seat to those who deem their views as superior.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16207
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing that is wrong with this discussion is it is always presented in absolute terms. One of the things that is missing is men taking responsibility for their own behavior. If this ever surfaces from conservatives, it is usually with an argument that they get to choose whether or not their partner in pregnancy gets a choice of whether or not to carry the fetus to birth. But men don't take responsibility either for avoiding pregnancy or paying childraising costs. The statistics are crystal clear.

The second thing that is missing is a frank discussion of what actually works to prevent unwanted pregnancy. Rape? Some Republicans have surfaced absolutely absurd arguments about that. Again, the statistics show that education and the availability of contraception have a dramatic effect in reducing abortion.

We could actually have an informed discussion about whether or not restrictions on abortion are consistent with Roe, at either 20 weeks or 24 weeks. I've never heard that from the right. and the legislation that has been developed by ALEC tries to regulate abortion from conception.

Even if the Supreme Court unwrites Roe, it will remain to the states to exercise their authority. Let's be clear. Much of the motivation behind ALEC legislation for things like abortion and court packing is providing economic benefits for big business.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4036

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was a young Catholic and evaluating my life and how religion would fit into it, it wasn't abortion that caused me the most concern. Not even close. It was how I could reconcile my desire for "wealth" and the teachings of Jesus.

Let's face it. It is much easier for a wealthy man to tell a woman what to do with her body than it is to give up that wealth to take care of less fortunate humans, including those unwanted children.

If we feel we can ask another Christian to justify his vote for a candidate who supports choice; isn't it fair game to ask how we justify our incredible wealth compared to the rest of humanity?
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5000

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justall wrote:
I don't think there is anything wrong with secular laws that align with Biblical teachings, but I don't think we should support arrogant, slandering and deceitful conduct (behaviors that are the opposite of how we are to live) to achieve it. How have you balanced the two?

I balance the two by looking at the relative impact of the two behaviors. Trump's behavior is frequently distasteful and annoying. That irritates a lot of people and causes them to behave equally badly.........review these pages for evidence of that. It is an undesirable characteristic which creates a lot of anger. Biden, on the other hand, believes that abortion is the taking of a human life.......the ultimate crime. It is impossible for me to support someone who states he holds that belief, yet will not only look the other way, but will actively support the procedure. What rationale can he possible have which persuades him that it is OK for others, who do not share his belief, to take a human life? The impact of that hypocrisy is, by his own admission, the loss of human life in huge numbers. So what you are comparing is boorish behavior which makes people angry, with a stunning lack of integrity which, by Biden's own definition, will cause human lives to be snuffed out. The greater character flaw is clear.
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