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Beach sneezes: Empiricism beats the hell out of opinions!
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windfind



Joined: 18 Mar 1997
Posts: 1646

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 12:50 pm    Post subject: Beach sneezes: Empiricism beats the hell out of opinions! Reply with quote

Quote:
Wear a mask at the beach if it makes you feel comfortable. It's benefits are dubious in an outdoor space where maintaining space with others is a little easier.


Hi Gang,

Here is a suggestion from one who used to teach a section on immunology as a college instructor.

1. Get a garden sprayer.

2. Add water and food coloring.

3. Pump it up and adjust the nozzle so the water spray emits water droplets about the size variation range and the distance you see when you sneeze.

4. On a calm day hold the nozzle 5 feet above the ground and spray over an asphalt surface so the droplets go out about 6 feet.

5. Keep spraying until you have a wet plume marking on the asphalt extending about 6 feet from the nozzle.

6. Repeat your "experiment" in 20 knots of wind and measure wet plume distance. Note how much longer the plume is on a windy day.

7. Repeat your "experiment" but put a mask over the nozzle and note size and distance of the wet plume.

I have lots of asphalt and lots of windy days at my house so I have done this "experiment".

Do the "experiment" yourself and then draw your own conclusion about the effectiveness of 6-foot social distancing and safety in the great outdoors on a windy day.

Now imagine you are at the beach and have a totally healthy asymptomatic COVID carrier 10 feet upwind of you. Would you rather have them wearing a mask or not? Rigatoni is right that it is easier to maintain distancing outdoors but perhaps wrong to say the benefits are dubious.

Empiricism beats the hell out of opinions!

Mike Godsey

PS. My experiment is crude but real experts at UC are are raising the same cautions about distancing on windy days. Also real sneezes have velocity much higher than a sprayer and being mucus they hold together longer in the wind so they can travel further than in this "experiment". Remember that in the real world there is turbulence due to cars etc. that will make the particles swirl around in unpredictable ways.



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bipbip



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Beach sneezes: Empiricism beats the hell out of opinions! Reply with quote

windfind wrote:
...you are at the beach and have a totally healthy asymptomatic COVID carrier 10 feet upwind of you. Would you rather have them wearing a mask or not?

The question is moot, because I cannot have him/her wear a mask.
The real issue is: should I (and my daughter) be wearing a mask while briefly transiting on the beach to get to the water, and which one?

Thanks for addressing the issue.
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fxop



Joined: 13 Jun 1998
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe we should be masking when rigging. Science aside, it's the "optics". The science is not settled but how the States, counties, and cities who control our access is there for all to see and it would be better not to give them an excuse to close back up.

fxop
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19738

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Beach sneezes: Empiricism beats the hell out of opinions! Reply with quote

bipbip wrote:
windfind wrote:
...you are at the beach and have a totally healthy asymptomatic COVID carrier 10 feet upwind of you. Would you rather have them wearing a mask or not?

The question is moot, because I cannot have him/her wear a mask.
The real issue is: should I (and my daughter) be wearing a mask while briefly transiting on the beach to get to the water, and which one?

Your and your daughter's masks protect others from you, but do almost nothing to protect you from others. You're right that we can't make someone else wear a mask, but we have every right to strongly request -- even threaten to hold our breath until we turn blue -- that the other person move downwind of us. If that fails, I'd just make sure I stayed upwind of him ... maybe even throw in a couple of good hairball hacks to get his attention. At our last wind event, the vast majority of riggers stood well apart, and it was pretty easy to keep myself upwind of them.

I'm sure "the internet" lists masks in order of protection level, but my N95 is way up on such a list ... WAY above surgical and designer/beautique masks. I sanitize it the natural way; hanging on a fence post in the breeze and desert sunshine. But even with the best mouth/nose mask, our eyes are still wide open and sucking up every CV they can find.

Our very best practical defense remains, according to leading physicians at the heart of the CV battle, never touching our face without scrubbing our hands first.
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windfind



Joined: 18 Mar 1997
Posts: 1646

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Beach sneezes: Empiricism beats the hell out of opinions! Reply with quote

bipbip wrote:

The real issue is: should I (and my daughter) be wearing a mask while briefly transiting on the beach to get to the water, and which one


Hi bipbip.

At the bottom is one easy answer to your question: Neck Gaiter

Isobars is right... a non-valve N95 will filter out about 95% of mucus laden viral particles AND it will capture far more of your own droplets if you are a carrier.

The science is pretty clear that in healthy people with few risk factors your macrophages and Natural Killer cells are pretty effective in destroying a few dozen to a few hundred SARS-coV viruses. It is the thousands/millions of viruses you take in when you are exposed to an infected person yelling, coughing or sneezing that are the issue.

So there are 2 benefits of wearing a mask.

1. The better the filtering quality of their mask the fewer viruses a carrier person releases. Ideally they are wearing an N95 but ANY mask helps some in controlling droplet spread.

2. Your chances of getting sick from an infected person is a function of: a. viral load in inhaled droplets b. Duration of your exposure. c. distance the droplets travel d. And, to a certain extent, the type of mask you are wearing.

When rigging on the beach a N-95 or least a LEVEL 3 surgical mask will serve both functions above very well. And even a simple bandana helps with both. (Incidentally there are MANY fake versions of both of these masks on the web. ONLY buy one from a dealer that has reviews going back well before COVID)

Both of these mask are impractical as you carry your gear into and out of the water.

So my idea is to buy a filtering "Neck Gaiter" like you see in the photos below.

After rigging return your N95 to your car. Then pull your damp neck gaiter over your face and enter the water. Once away from the beach pull it down. After sailing as you walk back the beach pull it up over your face until you get to your car then put on a real mask before interacting with people. Is it perfect? No but a damp finely woven gaiter and distancing will provide a good bit of protection.

Total time "wasted" maybe 1 minute.

Even if you think your chances of getting COVID are in the lottery range you would be a fool to risk getting sick and missing a season or a life for the loss of 1 minute of your time. Plus you can even find fashionable gaiters to match your bikini!

Mike Godsey



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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9683

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things aren't always what they seem. We have to remember that it's allergy season. Let's not get too carried away with gloom and doom.
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bipbip



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...this is a good thread.

Thank you isobars and windfind. Goiters and masks will be!
If not for 150% protection even just for optics, as fxop pointed out, and in both directions: to show we aren't reckless risk seeker, but also to 'remind' people that there's still a problem in the air and they might wear one too.

Granted the problem could be allergies, but who wants to take a risk of an asymptomatic virus carrier with allergies sneezing upwind?
Very Happy
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windsrf



Joined: 01 May 1998
Posts: 408

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree re value of thread.

Just got commitment to reopen Pt. Isabel Shoreline Park on June 1st.

Have been discussing possible value in wearing masks while rigging, in spite of fact that we have plenty of rigging space, on shore breeze in our face, "general public" somewhat removed, no more off-leash dogs (presumably), etc.

Already suggested that for "optics" alone, might be best approach to mask up.

Got the park reopened for two days at end of March only to be slammed closed again due to management perceptions re crowding and lack of physical distancing - and the Health Order citing "dog parks must be closed".

Worth some behavioral mods to avoid that this time around.

Thanks, David
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Goodwind



Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 248
Location: On water

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The evaluation of opinion on mask wearing is amazing. Early on when hospitals didn't have enough masks, the experts' advice was that you don't need one if you are not a healthcare professional; it would do more harm than good to wear it because you may accidentally touch you face after touching the virus filled mask. Hmmm, if the mask could protect the healthcare workers, why couldn't it protect you? And where would the viruses be if the mask was not on your face? No one thought of that? After evidence supporting presymptomatic and asymptomatic transmission came to light, there was a change of tune from the experts. Exercise the noble act of wearing a mask to protect others but not yourself.

Really? wearing a mask, having a layer of barrier, give you ZERO benefit? Now we have a scientific hamsters study on COVID-19 transmission to confirm my long suspicion that wearing mask DOES protect the wearer.

The article:
"The study, which the Hong Kong team calls the first of its kind, used hamsters in two cages; one group of hamsters infected with Covid-19 and the other healthy. The researchers created three different scenarios: mask barriers placed just on cages with the infected subjects, masks covering the healthy subjects, and one with no mask barriers at all, with a fan between the cages allowing particles to be transmitted between them.  With no mask barriers at all, two-thirds of the healthy hamsters — 66.7% — were infected with the virus within a week, the researchers found. When the mask was placed over the infected cage, however, that infection rate dropped to 16.7%. The infection rate went up to 33% when the mask barrier was only used to cover the healthy hamsters’ cage.  The hamsters who were still infected despite having the mask barrier also had less of the virus in their bodies compared to those infected without the masks, the researchers found." 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/19/coronavirus-wearing-a-mask-can-reduce-transmission-by-75percent-new-study-claims.html

The study implied that if an infected person is wearing a mask, it reduces the infection rate by 50%. If a healthy person is wearing a mask,  it reduces the infection rate by 33.7%.  On top of that, if you are infected, wearing mask reduces your viral load, giving your body a better chance of fight off the disease. Of course, the choice is yours.
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bprice



Joined: 21 Oct 2000
Posts: 128

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got a neck gaiter about 3 weeks ago and really like it for 2 reasons. Love how it keeps the sun off my neck and lower face so I can use less sunscreen there. Works great with the hat and full body covering I'm already wearing. I've already had 1 face MOES procedure so more protection is better. And it's nice to have the option to pull it up over the nose for added protection when around people... especially on the crowded holiday weekends.
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