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Foil faster than slalom
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1062

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
dvCali wrote:
Example: just yesterday Damien Leguen on a Zeeko aluminum foil got a rather stunning 32 knots over 500 meters. This in 16-18 knots, 2-3 feet chop, and a 6.3 (!!!!). Follow this thread at https://www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=118927.

That requires a few corrections:
- Speed over 500 m was 30.9 knots. The 32 knots were the top speed, which is not used in most serious speed events since it is the least accurate number.
- Wind was much higher: 15-25 knots
- He had "relatively flat water". In the picture, it looks very flat.

More than 30 knots on his gear is still impressive, and about twice as fast as typical numbers from an Infinity 84. But the venue seems quite good for speed - the same guy has a top 500 m entry of 37.8 knots on "PAV FUN" (a shortboard, I assume).


30.9 knots over 500 meters is not 32 but it is still VERY impressive. Yep, in the picture it looks flatter than the verbal report, and I was just repeating the wind speeds reported on that thread.

In my experience one foot of chop is all it takes to slow down a regular windsurf and make it hit a speed barrier. I am not by any means a pro-level sailor, but I used to go fast with racing gear, and my top speeds have been 32-33 knots with some very dubious 35-36 knots. All 2-5 sec max. Anything above that has been clearly made impossible by the water conditions one finds in the Bay Area. I could be massively overpowered, but in good asset, and max speed would not go up ... the hits against the chop did!

I remember discussions with people doing speed runs in Maui, and the consensus was that in open water conditions there is a "barrier" at around 35-36 knots. To go any faster than that you need to be in special locations, canals, ot channels, or off shore swept strips where there are just ripples, no chop of any sort.

To me a foil doing 30.9 over 500 in open water with 32 max 2 secs shows that the speed gap is closing. Maybe still a bit below, but maybe not given how little a foil is effected by chop and how resistant it is to wind variation and in particular lulls.

(PS I am not sure why people mention the infinity foil in this thread. It is very slow, and more to the point it is like comparing a wave to a slalom board in a discussion about speed ....)
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4593
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi D, how is your windfoiling coming along?
I'm at day 50, little progress from day 4. Can tool around at 15 mph and make planing jibes, but full foil jibes elude me.
Thinking of buying a 600 sq cm foil, half the size of my current Naish, to increase reaching speeds to 22.
Totally not into course slalom.
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 830

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another factor I keep bashing on is that 30kts setup can still rocket upwind and through lulls, a speed sailing specific slalom setup has nowhere near that kind of VMG potential.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4593
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want VMG.
Just want to reach.
Here, upwind means 2.5 foot chop, and 6 foot wave faces downwind.
We're at the bottom of an 11 mile fetch of wind.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1210

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
Another factor I keep bashing on is that 30kts setup can still rocket upwind and through lulls, a speed sailing specific slalom setup has nowhere near that kind of VMG potential.

Good upwind angles are great because they make downwind runs easier, whether it's for speed runs at 130 degrees to the wind or for playing with swell.

But VMG matters mostly if you want to race, and then only if it's not a slalom type course. A decent slalom setup will go upwind very nicely, even with a weed fin. Takes a bit of skill, though. I remember one day where Bart at Fogland showed all us wanna-be slalom sailors how it's done. His angles looked like he did not notice that he was not on a formula board Very Happy.

Even a dedicated speed setup does upwind quite nicely. Check the track images from the Coastal Speed Team today (and check the image that shows how flat the water was in 30 knots!). Three guys with top speeds above 40 knots, and nautical miles above 36 knots. I had the pleasure of meeting all three of them earlier this year. The spot they sailed (Albany) is unbelievable - and totally unfoilable (check the video at 13:00 - these weeds can get 7 feet tall, are anchored on the ground, and are very abrasive).

A couple of guys from the Pinnaroos, the same team as the original post in this thread, were sailing at the same spot today, and also did 40 knots. Mark posted a nice video on Youtube. We had similar wind today but no flat water, so my top speed was in the low 20s. Still lots of fun, and gave me the idea to perhaps try backloops Surprised .
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1062

PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
grantmac017 wrote:
Another factor I keep bashing on is that 30kts setup can still rocket upwind and through lulls, a speed sailing specific slalom setup has nowhere near that kind of VMG potential.

Good upwind angles are great because they make downwind runs easier, whether it's for speed runs at 130 degrees to the wind or for playing with swell.

But VMG matters mostly if you want to race, and then only if it's not a slalom type course. A decent slalom setup will go upwind very nicely, even with a weed fin. Takes a bit of skill, though. I remember one day where Bart at Fogland showed all us wanna-be slalom sailors how it's done. His angles looked like he did not notice that he was not on a formula board Very Happy.

Even a dedicated speed setup does upwind quite nicely. Check the track images from the Coastal Speed Team today (and check the image that shows how flat the water was in 30 knots!). Three guys with top speeds above 40 knots, and nautical miles above 36 knots. I had the pleasure of meeting all three of them earlier this year. The spot they sailed (Albany) is unbelievable - and totally unfoilable (check the video at 13:00 - these weeds can get 7 feet tall, are anchored on the ground, and are very abrasive).

A couple of guys from the Pinnaroos, the same team as the original post in this thread, were sailing at the same spot today, and also did 40 knots. Mark posted a nice video on Youtube. We had similar wind today but no flat water, so my top speed was in the low 20s. Still lots of fun, and gave me the idea to perhaps try backloops Surprised .


Nice flat water! Wish there was a spot like that in the Bay Area, I would have liked to hit 40 in the days ...
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