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boardsurfr
Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1266
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 Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: | | Many foiling and windsurfing gurus here and in person claim that pumping is impossible without having our front feet strapped in. I've never understood that |
A single person pumping without straps proves them wrong. I'll pick Andy Brandt, who'll foil on his strapless SS Flyer with a 5.2 in less than 10 knots by pumping. He's somewhere around 190 pounds. Or my wife, who usually pumps up onto the foil, and can fly in 10 mph after fewer than 20 sessions. No straps on the board.
It's probably very board-dependent. If you are on a short foil-specific board with straps and lots of nose rocker, pumping while standing in front of the straps may just get you nowhere. Remove the straps and put your feet at the same place where the straps would be, though, and pumping should work just fine.
This reminds me at a trip to Jeri where I had twisted my knee in an involuntary one-footed jump. I removed the front strap on one side to reduce the twist on my knee. The rental place guys thought I was crazy, and that I would get catapulted all the time. I barely understood what they meant - for me, being in the front strap has (almost) nothing to do with catapults. |
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dllee
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 5329
Location: East Bay
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:35 am Post subject: |
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For sure, foiling works 1-2 meters smaller than windsurfing.
Now, what does that REALLY mean in light winds?
KevinK, 195 lbs and add a full wetsuit uses around 4.2 and 84 wing in 12-20mph winds. WS, Stb and 4.4, needs 15-24 mph winds. Not so dif.
Me, less skilled but 160, add thick wetsuit, me old, would choose 4.0 and Naish foil in 12-20. But to WS in 12-20, I normally go 5.2 and Skate 110. Or, 6.6 and 95 Freeride. Or, 7.4 and Isonic 111.
So a lot of info can be interpreted differently.
BTW, going strapless was eye opening after 35 days of strapped foiling. |
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grantmac017
Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 946
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:52 am Post subject: |
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I could probably pump fine strapless, but my feet would be where the straps are. So I just put them in and carry on.
I foiled quite a bit strapless on the 100.5cm and had all the leverage I wanted by simply moving my feet around. On the narrower board I use the straps for leverage and find they offer a lot of advantages, the rears I'm ambivalent about however.
Lots of Seattle sailors are using +9m sails with +90cm boards along with the Infinity 84cm. A few are also on the new huge SB ultra light wind race wing. They seem to have similar minimum wind speeds although the SB is much faster.
I haven't ridden either one but the Seattle crowd are constantly chasing the ultimate light wind setup. |
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VinceSF
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 249
Location: Maui, HI
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| grantmac017 wrote: | | I must admit it's extremely costly for something that there is no way to demo. |
The price on the website probably has taxes added to it. The final price to you with shipping should be lower than that, hopefully. |
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boardsurfr
Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1266
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| dllee wrote: | KevinK, 195 lbs and add a full wetsuit uses around 4.2 and 84 wing in 12-20mph winds. WS, Stb and 4.4, needs 15-24 mph winds. Not so dif.
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If he gets going on the 4.2 in 12 mph, he should be able to get going in 10 mph with a 5.0 or larger sail. 10 vs. 15 mph is a big difference at most places.
Where we sail, most windsurfers need about 18-19 mph (according to our local iWindsurf meter) to get going on reasonable gear. Most still require a 6 or 7 m sail. That's guys and women with average skills, and sometimes a few extra pounds. About 15 mph seems to be the limit to see anyone planing, but they are then either light and highly skilled, or on huge gear. At 15, there'll be a couple of windsurfers planing, and another couple slogging; at 20, there'll be 20+ windsurfers out.
If you're in a spot like the SF area where you get 20 mph wind almost every day, the difference may not matter. But there's plenty of places where a few mph difference in the teens make a huge difference in the number of fun days. The fun factor may be what really matters, anyway. I can get going on large slalom gear in 14-15 mph, and enjoy it. But I usually have to be wind-starved before I consider it. On a hot summer day with heat index near 100, I don't want to carry big sails around, and work hard. With the foil and a 6 m sail instead of an 8 m, the same 15 mph day is great fun, and I can't wait to get onto the water.
Kalmus is one of the windiest spots on the East Coast; still, only 2 of the 12 days I sailed in July had wind above 20 mph (with another 3 days of 18 or 19 averages, and I missed a day or two). 7 out of 12 days, the foil was the only choice, and 10 out of 12 days, it was the "much more fun" choice. A few of those days, foilers were the only ones out. Even on the days where we get 18+ mph averages, the wind often drops lower; then, foils keep flying much longer than windsurfers keep planing. Flying is a lot more fun than slogging or constantly fighting to get onto a plane, or to stay planing! |
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dvCali
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1314
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| boardsurfr wrote: | ...
If you're in a spot like the SF area where you get 20 mph wind almost every day, the difference may not matter. But there's plenty of places where a few mph difference in the teens make a huge difference in the number of fun days. The fun factor may be what really matters, anyway. I can get going on large slalom gear in 14-15 mph, and enjoy it. But I usually have to be wind-starved before I consider it. On a hot summer day with heat index near 100, I don't want to carry big sails around, and work hard. With the foil and a 6 m sail instead of an 8 m, the same 15 mph day is great fun, and I can't wait to get onto the water.
... |
We actually do not, the wind always went in cycles of roughly 3-5 days and years like this one have a lot of windless and spotty days. If anything what we miss are steady light breezes.
As far as efficiency is concerned I used to think that a foil would be about as efficient as my Isonic 111 + Switchblade 7.3 around here (I am 160 pounds). But I realized that that impression was due to the fact that in the 2018 season the people I observed or I was sailing with were still learning to foil.
Just in recent days side by side with an advanced/recreational sailor like myself on a F4 + 5.4 + 200 pounds there was no way I could keep up with my Isonic. The foil had better low end, way better angle up or down wind, and better glide. Take a more recreational set up (Slingshot Infinity 76 + Freek 4.4) and it still had much better low end and glide.
Take the pro-level sailors I can observe in action (the F4 development team, or Marion Lepert), and the difference is even more pronounced.
And besides performance you are right: most people I know are hesitant to deal with the hassle of a large slalom board plus 7.3-8.5 sails. For them a foil means the difference between no time on the water and sailing!
Last edited by dvCali on Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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coachg
Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3553
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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One of these days I may understand what Fun Factor means. There are people out there who appear to know what Fun Factor means but every time I show up to windsurf there are dozens of people doing dozens of different water activities. They, like me, appear to still not understand Fun Factor because we are all doing different things & having fun at the same time.
I have been foiling for a little over a year now & have been having a blast. In fact, I just upgraded to the 2020 Naish 1150 foil. As I said, I am having fun, but it is a different kind of fun than I have with my light wind slalom setup. So I still do not understand what Fun Factor actually is.
A couple of observations that may differ from your experience. Foil boards, because of all the reinforcements, weigh more than my slalom board. At least every foil board I have picked up & the weight difference can be significant, at least in feel. Every foil weighs 1000 times more than my 40 cm slalom fin.
I'm 170 & use a camless 7.2 sail for light wind, 13 mph & under for me. My slalom board, fin & rig are super light & easy to carry long distances together. Not so with my foil, board & super light 5.7 rig. Where I normally sail low tide means the near dock can't be used with my foil because of the weeds so I have to take the long walk & launch out of a huge wind shadow. With my slalom board I just jump on the nose & sail fin first to clear the weeds to the deep water channel.
The board under you determines how heavy or light a rig feels more than the rig's actual weight on land in my experience. In a 5 mph wind my 5.0 feels super light when uphauling and slogging on a 110 liter board but the same rig feels heavy & unbalanced when uphauling & slogging in 5 mph wind on an 85 liter board. Same feeling with my 7.2 on my biggest slalom board. Put it on a small freeride or slalom board & it feels heavy.
Where I sail under 13 mph winds means plenty of periods with winds around 5 mph where I can't fly the foil or plane with the slalom board. In those light wind periods there are far more freestyle tricks I can practice with my slalom board than I can with my foil board.
All that being said, I have not used my light wind slalom gear since March, & only 3 times this year. The biggest reason for foil dominating my light wind sessions is the newer challenge of the sport, not that it is more fun. And if you ask me which is more fun I can't tell you because each is fun in a different way. Eventually I may understand what Fun Factor is & be able to tell you exactly how to have fun, but that moment has not arrived yet.
Coachg |
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NOVAAN
Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 1551
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Coachg... My Naish 1150 foil gets here in a few days. How does it compare to last years wind.. |
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windward1
Joined: 18 Jun 2000
Posts: 1400
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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"Fun" is in the mind of the beholder.
I have fun in 5 to 10 knots of wind with a SUPSail board and if there are nicely shaped swell inbound. This is in wind too light to foil for most folk. However, many windsurfers do not want to think about being on a longboard. Any longboard. And that is fine. "Fun" is in the mind of the beholder. |
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coachg
Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3553
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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NOVAAN,
My 1150 is on order as well. I have the 2018 wing with an upgraded 90 cm mast & Abracadabra attachment.
Coachg |
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