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Let's Talk Cammed Sails
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9102

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, you could go with the 7.8 NX and save yourself the cost of a 490 mast. While it is quite close in size to your 7.5 Retro, the NX will offer the advantages of a 4 camber sail, such as the ability to cruise through some pesky lulls in up and down conditions. You might find that you can get exactly what missing right now with the 7.5 Retro.

While some others here may disagree, I don't really believe that race sails need to be rigged 1-2 meters bigger than regular non-cambered sails. Of course, pro racers will want to rig as big as they can, because they are experts at sailing on the ragged edge of being totally overpowered. You can't be fast and win if you can't sail that way. For normal sailors like ourselves, you can rig similarly sized sails and still get a pretty good low end, but you can also stay big while others need to rig down by a little tuning. It's important to remember that you can tune race sails for light, medium and strong wind conditions just like most other sail designs.

Lastly, I'm glad that Craig brought up the importance of a bigger fin should you go with 8.5-8.6 sail, particularly in lighter wind conditions. He's absolutely spot on. If you are considering these bigger sizes, you really need at least a 46-50cm fin, and maybe up to 52cm. My old 8.1 Windwing Race performed beautifully with a Tectonics Mirage 50cm. It had outstanding range too. Speaking for myself, I especially liked a vertical course slalom design like the Mirage over more swept and curvy freeride designs because they offered a larger more powerful tip configuration that really makes a difference staying upwind in very light conditions. And, don't be fooled into thinking that vertical course slalom designs don't jibe well. They do.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3940
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you place a race/slalom sail of the same size as a wave sail atop one another, you will find the wave sail has more sail area above the boom and much less below.
That partially explains why for the same size sail, the wave sail can be used at a smaller size.
Freeride sails can be anywhere as the designs fluctuate wildly.
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akrausz



Joined: 19 Sep 2008
Posts: 106
Location: Sarasota, FL

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 114 Futura is your biggest board? Get a bigger board first.
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mamero



Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Posts: 352
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

akrausz wrote:
The 114 Futura is your biggest board? Get a bigger board first.


The Futura 114 can take up to 9.0.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2150
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the advertising says that, but even a 140 pounder would be
happier with either a wider or a longer board for an 8.5. I'd think something in the 135 ltr range would suit you.

-Craig

mamero wrote:
akrausz wrote:
Get a bigger board first.


The Futura 114 can take up to 9.0.


Last edited by cgoudie1 on Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am 170 plus lbs
I have retro 4.5, 5.0, 6.0, 7.0 and 8.5
I also had 10.0 but I sold it. It was too big for me to transport, especially the boom.
But most importantly to carry it.

8.5 is also too heavy, too big of a size and big leverages. When I carry it to the water I make sure that there are no women and children around, my horse is getting tired fast and my truck makes frequent stops. Of course if you have a friendly launch right at the water edge this won't be a problem. Otherwise try to carry it for a while.

Besides an obvious mast 490 that was mentioned numerous times, you most likely will need a boom for it. Depends on your current one, if it needs to be extended to the max, it is not good. And it has to be a carbon one.

I sail my 8.5 with Formula and Fanatic Ray 145. Depends on the wind. Ray is 82 wide and if wind is tad stronger I sail it.

I had Ray 130, 73 wide, it was saying that it is good for up to 9.0
It was not as good with 8.5 as 145, and once when the wind died I have to uphaul it in the chop - looooong lake, it developed a "wave" with 1 second interval. It was a challenge. Again try to sail 8.5 with your small Futura. You are a lighter guy, it will be more difficult for you.

Absolutely second the advice above for a bigger board. Something like 145 l , 80+ wide. It will buy you same one or two knots of wind. You won't win races on it with 7.5 but it is not your goal.

I myself often sail this 145 with 7.0 (say an hour left in a day and I don't want to spend it on rigging another sail), bigger board makes a lot of difference.
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ss59



Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

akrausz wrote:
The 114 Futura is your biggest board? Get a bigger board first.


at 63kg a 114 litre board is already a plenty big enough board.

Just watched your youtube vid from the link in another thread. Your 7.5 is ample big enough as your biggest sail at your weight - you will gain nothing by going bigger (at your current level) - you also definitely, definitely don't want a cammed sail if you want to progress with any speed.

In the video clip you look a little out of balance on the board - try getting your hands a little closer together, with your front hand just touching the front harness tab. Definitely get your front leg straight and bend the back leg - doing that is going to be the same as at least a metre more of cammed sail!
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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 1037

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with ss59. There is a point where going bigger board, sail and fin return little in early planning. Add the expense, weight and drag of all the above for little or no return and its just not there in my opinion. Learn lite wind pumping, rig you sail for power and bear off the wind and you can get the 1 or 2 mph threshold that your looking for. And its free. At most windsurfing spots there is always a guy or two that seem to be going on smaller gear than everyone else. Go talk to him and find out why. Also you don't always need to be blasting at top speed to have fun windsurfing. Lite wind skills go a long way to improve your high wind sailing. 10 to 12 mph wind screams 7.5 retro and Kona long board. Go demo one....
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alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, all true... you have three options
* better technique
* bigger sail
* bigger board

say, each one alone can purchase you one knot
and if you implement all three you will get 2 knots (the law of diminishing returns)

and no matter what there always be a situation when you will be one knot short from planning... you have to learn how to deal with it. Mastering lite air tricks is a good way of doing this. Do you do light air pivot jibe? If not, the skills you learn (e.g. in sails flip) will directly translate into your high wind jibe.

I speak from my own experience. I was forced into light air when my wife decided that we should spend couple weeks in fall and in spring in Okanagan - it is even worse than Vancouver wind wise. I learned a pivot jibe and figured shlogging upwind and I absolutely enjoyed my time on the water. I doubt I will drive an hour for that not knowing if it will blow at all, but living on the water edge it was no brainer. All on Formula+8.5

Yes it would be easier on Formula and 5.0, like for you it will be easier on your Futura and 4.5 But there is a caveat - in marginal wind if you go with small sail you give up the hope of planning for the day. If you go on your biggest sail (in my case 8.5; in your case 7.5) and on the much bigger board, so this sail is minimally recommended for this board (like for my Formula the min sail is 8.5; and for my 145 Ray the min sail is 7.0) - you kill two birds with one shot.

In case of the gust you in the straps and the harness, otherwise you learning pivot jibe within a comfort of much bigger board.

I'd say given the body weights the Formula+8.5 for me will be very similar as 145 l+7.5 for you. Also when on the water I was very comfortable on Formula+10.0, it is on the dry land this 10.0 was an annoyance.

Sightly bigger board in marginal wind with same sail will make everything easier (pumping, jibing, uphauling, etc.).
Sightly smaller board in marginal wind with same sail will make everything more difficult.
Of course this is an opposite case in a strong wind.

Last word of advice - if you decide with 145 l board, it has to be a light construction, no more than 7.5 kg
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9102

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I understand your 114 liter Futura is 72cm wide. That's plenty wide enough to handle a 8.5-8.6 sail. The widest board that I've ever owned is 63.5cm, and I had no trouble at all with my 8.1 and 8.3 sails in the past. Yet, as many have noted, it's a big sail for your size that will prove to be a bit of a chore to shuttle it around on land, especially when wet coming in after your session. Also, sometimes jockeying it around for waterstarting and getting the clew up out of the water can be a challenge of sorts. However, I think that you will be able to easily get that extra 1-2mph you're looking for out of it.

Again, like I mentioned above, maybe the smaller 7.8 NX could be just what you're looking for, especially with a bigger fin (in the 46-48cm range for the 7.8 NX) to go with it. One thing that I would suggest up front would be to buy a bigger fin first and see how it beefs up the power of your 7.5 Retro. I think that you would be surprised how much difference a bigger fin makes, and maybe that's all you really need to meet your goals. Although Tectonics fins are a bit pricey, I would recommend seriously checking them out, because they are worth every penny. Check out the Phoenix or Raptor designs. Call Bruce Peterson or Dale Cook and ask them what they think about Tectonics fins. I'm sure that they will second my thoughts about them being an excellent choice in the marketplace.
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