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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/water-emissions-fuel-cell-vehicles
OK. Let's give Iso and Techno the benefit of the doubt (trying to keep from laughing) and say that water vapor does contribute to climate change and hydrogen car emissions will increase climate change...
Well. It turns out that a bi product of burning gasoline is...wait for it...water vapor. And, as it turns out very similar in quantity to that which is produced by a hydrogen combustion engine.
So. I guess under the Isotechno model (my new word for fake science) we have to put water vapor into another negative for hydrocarbon burning effects on climate change. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17750
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | | J64TWB wrote: | Well there you have it. Techno and isobars have proven the entire scientific world bodies wrong.
Who would have thought 2 average joe windsurfers would win the Nobel prize for scientific contributions? |
Gee, we provide factual scientific information that says water vapor is a greenhouse gas and contributes to global warming. DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT?
My post asked the question - would the water vapor generated from hydrogen powered cars make any difference in the atmospheric water vapor totals that could add to global warming? IF YOU CARE TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE, PLEASE DO, BUT YOUR COMMENT STATING THAT THE ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC WORLD HAS BEEN PROVEN WRONG BY MY STATEMENT IS PATHETIC. |
OMG. Paranoia squared. Grab a sentence out of an article out of context, about something you don’t understand, and voila, you own the libs.
Water vapor. AKA as clouds. Remember, I’ve been reading the literature on global warming since 1983, when I was in graduate school. For many years, I thought the modeling of climate change overstated the potential impact—because it didn’t account for water vapor, that is, clouds. Indeed, the earlier models didn’t consider that clouds might increase—because of temperature, the first order factor, not burning hydrogen as a fuel. My hope was that the warming would increase cloud cover and thus dampen the impacts of climate change. Remember, clouds can both reflect solar energy, as well as trap what reaches the earth.
Well, we are nearly 40 years on, and the models are so much better. Nobody in the scientific world thinks that increased cloud cover will save us—or that water vapor is causing climate change. Except idiots who watch Fox, don’t understand science, and ache to own the libs, the scientists, and anyone else that actually paid attention in school. |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4164
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| J64TWB wrote: | Think about it Techno. The amount of water vapor naturally present in the atmosphere from the worlds oceans is vast. 71% of earth is covered in water and that’s a HUGE reservoir for evaporation. Any water vapor produced by combustion would be infinitesimal and dwarf the amount of daily evaporation from the the worlds oceans. Think of how much water vapor is in a single hurricane, a slight drizzle on Wednesday or an entire monsoon season. How about the water vapor in a good blizzard, or just a basic fog in the morning? Hell it’s raining here now.
You going to man make that much water one molecule at a time?
Over 13,000 gallons of rain fall on a 1/2 acre with a 1 inch rainstorm. With an average of 39 inches of rain a year here, my yard gets over 1/2 million gallons of water on it each year, and my grass still looks like shit. |
Wow, a rational statement, and I do agree with it. And it's my belief that hydrogen powered cars would not contribute a meaningful amount of water vapor to impact global warming, but I really don't know. But the fact is - H powered cars will add water vapor to the atmosphere, and it is a greenhouse gas. Plus, I have read that the accidental release of H into the atmosphere creates additional environmental problems, so I predict that H powered cars will not be the thing of the future. |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4164
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:55 am Post subject: |
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coboardhead said: | Quote: | | OK. Let's give Iso and Techno the benefit of the doubt (trying to keep from laughing) and say that water vapor does contribute to climate change and hydrogen car emissions will increase climate change... |
I never said that. Go back and read more carefully. NO doubt that water vapor is a greenhouse gas and if you add more of it to the atmosphere, a simple deduction would be that it could add to global warming. But I said that I don't know if there would be enough water vapor generated by H powered cars to have an impact. That seems to be the question for which I see no answer other than speculation. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17750
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | | J64TWB wrote: | Think about it Techno. The amount of water vapor naturally present in the atmosphere from the worlds oceans is vast. 71% of earth is covered in water and that’s a HUGE reservoir for evaporation. Any water vapor produced by combustion would be infinitesimal and dwarf the amount of daily evaporation from the the worlds oceans. Think of how much water vapor is in a single hurricane, a slight drizzle on Wednesday or an entire monsoon season. How about the water vapor in a good blizzard, or just a basic fog in the morning? Hell it’s raining here now.
You going to man make that much water one molecule at a time?
Over 13,000 gallons of rain fall on a 1/2 acre with a 1 inch rainstorm. With an average of 39 inches of rain a year here, my yard gets over 1/2 million gallons of water on it each year, and my grass still looks like shit. |
Wow, a rational statement, and I do agree with it. And it's my belief that hydrogen powered cars would not contribute a meaningful amount of water vapor to impact global warming, but I really don't know. But the fact is - H powered cars will add water vapor to the atmosphere, and it is a greenhouse gas. Plus, I have read that the accidental release of H into the atmosphere creates additional environmental problems, so I predict that H powered cars will not be the thing of the future. |
With one click:
| Quote: | | At any one instant, the Earth’s atmosphere contains 37.5 million-billion gallons of water vapor – enough to cover the entire surface of the planet with 1 inch of rain if condensed. This amount is recycled, through evaporation powered by the Sun, 40 times each year in what is known as the hydrologic cycle. |
“No doubt that water vapor is a greenhouse gas” says a man who clearly didn’t—and couldn’t—teach science. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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What is AGWA if not speculation, mostly ideological to boot?
| techno900 wrote: | | ... That seems to be the question for which I see no answer other than speculation. |
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J64TWB
Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1685
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4164
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:24 am Post subject: |
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For Mac:
With one click from NASA:
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Water Vapor Confirmed as Major Player in Climate Change
Water vapor is known to be Earth’s most abundant greenhouse gas, but the extent of its contribution to global warming has been debated. Using recent NASA satellite data, researchers have estimated more precisely than ever the heat-trapping effect of water in the air, validating the role of the gas as a critical component of climate change.
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17750
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Did I say out of context? The planet is habitable because of cloud cover. It keeps heat in—and when the cover is heavy, reflects heat. The cloud cycle is driven by heat—high school chemistry teaches us how water vapor in air is a function of temperature. The amount of water vapor—clouds—in the atmosphere is huge, and is a factor of the global temperature. I gave you the number—I’m not sure how many orders of magnitude greater than burning hydrogen it is, I’m only sure that burning hydrogen as a fuel doesn’t affect it. There’s plenty of water to evaporate if the atmosphere can hold it.
Paranoid people grab a fact to shore up their fear, instead of striving for understanding.
This doesn’t mean hydrogen is a perfect fuel. It needs to be generated and compressed. But that can be done with solar or wind power. |
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J64TWB
Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1685
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Techno, water vapor does not cause global warming, it is a result of. Much in the same as when snow pack retreats, the land which is darker and much less reflective, now absorbs sunlight increasing the warming. When sea ice disappears, the sun is not reflecting off ice, but absorbing in the water, warming the water. When clouds form, they can be both warming and cooling. They cool by reflection back to space, they warm by trapping heat loss to space (mostly at night). Which is why cloudy winter nights are much warmer than clear winter nights, considerably.
You remember those satellites? The ones within a nanometer of each other? Positive feedback loops need to be studied. They do not cause global warming, they are a result of it, amplifying it. In turn they need to be understood. Again, climate feedbacks are natural processes that respond to global warming, not causing it. |
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