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Foiling Upwind - any tips?
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2623

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is upwind/downwind potential? Is it sailing straight up wind? Then no, not a single windsurfing foil has any upwind potential. Is it racing upwind? Then no, the Naish will not point as high as race foils. Is it the ability to overcome a 3-4 knt current? Then yes, the Naish has plenty of upwind potential.
The Naish is definitely slower due to the delta wings greater area which produces more drag. However, that greater area allows the Naish foil to fly at lower speeds so it lifts earlier & with smaller sails compared to other foils. The Naish planes just as early as the other foils, it just doesn't need the big sail, which is kind of the reason I tried foiling.

Coachg
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SergioKapul



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
What is upwind/downwind potential? Is it sailing straight up wind? Then no, not a single windsurfing foil has any upwind potential. Is it racing upwind? Then no, the Naish will not point as high as race foils. Is it the ability to overcome a 3-4 knt current? Then yes, the Naish has plenty of upwind potential.
The Naish is definitely slower due to the delta wings greater area which produces more drag. However, that greater area allows the Naish foil to fly at lower speeds so it lifts earlier & with smaller sails compared to other foils. The Naish planes just as early as the other foils, it just doesn't need the big sail, which is kind of the reason I tried foiling.

Coachg

As a comperasing to other higher aspect design, we agree, naish is slower and doesn't point as high upwind, if you only freeride it might not matter, I personally like the option to go faster or anywhere, not locked into a box. As for early foiling, you are lucky you live where winds stronger and stable. What you consider light wind is a mid range to people outside of Gorge, n. California, Maui, etc.. hopefully, foil sail development will allow foiling in under 6.0 m2 in true 5-6 kn, for now even for me( I'm 135lb and very good at pumping) very good, specially twicked 7.0 m2 sail is minimal to generate enough pressure to get going,,, that means regular size ppl need >8m2,,, and that size is not a good match for Naish foil or board.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2623

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Naish foil can go anywhere as well, just not as fast so I'm not sure what box you think it is locked into. Also, being more stable at lower speeds means it is easier to do upwind & downwind 360's, ride & not outrun swells & when I switch the 90 cm mast for the 70 cm is exceptional at jumping.

Light wind, midrange wind are vague statements with no meaning but sail size is a good measurement. If a regular sized person is going to need >8 m2 sail they are simply not going to be interested, especially if they have to pump. Just the cost of the big rig will scare most away.

All of California is not windy like the Bay/Delta, all of Oregon is not windy like the Gorge & all of Hawaii is not super windy like Maui. There are plenty of places with wind like yours in the 5-10 mph on a good day. At places like that a longboard & smaller sail is going to be a much bigger draw to the average person than an expensive foil, huge rig & expensive cost.

I could be wrong & you could be right. Maybe people will want massive sized boards paired with massive sized sails to put their foils on so they can work up a sweat pumping to get going in 5-6 knt winds. I think they would rather go out on a SUP where they have absolutely no loss in upwind potential like they would have with a foil.

As for foil development, I see the same problem now as what happened with the windsurfing industry in general. The development is taking the foils into higher & higher winds which I think is a mistake for the average sailor. Only Naish has tried to keep it simple & accessible to the average sailor who doesn't want a huge 8+ m2 sail & 85 cm+ board.

Coachg
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SergioKapul



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
The Naish foil can go anywhere as well, just not as fast so I'm not sure what box you think it is locked into. Also, being more stable at lower speeds means it is easier to do upwind & downwind 360's, ride & not outrun swells & when I switch the 90 cm mast for the 70 cm is exceptional at jumping.

Light wind, midrange wind are vague statements with no meaning but sail size is a good measurement. If a regular sized person is going to need >8 m2 sail they are simply not going to be interested, especially if they have to pump. Just the cost of the big rig will scare most away.

All of California is not windy like the Bay/Delta, all of Oregon is not windy like the Gorge & all of Hawaii is not super windy like Maui. There are plenty of places with wind like yours in the 5-10 mph on a good day. At places like that a longboard & smaller sail is going to be a much bigger draw to the average person than an expensive foil, huge rig & expensive cost.

I could be wrong & you could be right. Maybe people will want massive sized boards paired with massive sized sails to put their foils on so they can work up a sweat pumping to get going in 5-6 knt winds. I think they would rather go out on a SUP where they have absolutely no loss in upwind potential like they would have with a foil.

As for foil development, I see the same problem now as what happened with the windsurfing industry in general. The development is taking the foils into higher & higher winds which I think is a mistake for the average sailor. Only Naish has tried to keep it simple & accessible to the average sailor who doesn't want a huge 8+ m2 sail & 85 cm+ board.

Coachg

You reply clearly illustrates why we so far apart,,, if I listened to your advise, I would either quit windsurfing or only would do it few times a year. regular weekend warriors windsurfers in Midwest ,Florida ,etc. already own >8.0 m2 and huge boards. Foil allows to drop 2 sail sizes and make it more exciting on light wind days, that's the big draw.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2623

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other than how to sail the Naish up wind I have not offered any advice on foiling in this thread so I'm not sure why you thought I did. I did correct your inaccuracies on the Naish foil setup so on that we were far apart. I did state observations that people have expressed to me when I'm teaching windsurfing at the local sailing club, local college & ABK on foiling but observations are not advice.

If you think I am advising people not to pursue large sails or boards than you couldn't be more wrong. I own a formula board along with 9.2 & 10 meter sails. I never tell someone not to get a bigger sail or board. If someone already has a large board & sail I encourage them to try foiling & make a note that the cost will drop as more used foils enter the market. I tell them the advantages & disadvantages of such an adventure. There are people like you & I that are willing to use large sails & boards in light winds, but you & I are in the minority based on my interactions over the years with both students & observers. You may not want to hear that, you may want to think that the majority wants to sail like you, but alas, I feel that is not true. That is why I said that the foil industry needs to follow the Naish development of easier, faster flying foils using normal sized boards & sails instead of the high end, high wind development requiring huge boards & sails. I think that will reach the majority & bring more people into windsurfing.

Coachg
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 569

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something like 5-6 people are now on the biggest Slingshot wing (84cm and 2088cm3) in the greater Seattle area simply because nothing else can touch it for light wind use. It points upwind better than most casual formula sailors at a similar overall VMG while happily flying in 8-10mph with a 7.0 all while being easy to use and still fun.

Getting upwind is more about the sail and technique, less about the foil. Max speed is a totally different situation with the fastest locals hitting upper 20s fairly often using 7-8.6m sails and mostly AFS foils.
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SergioKapul



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
Something like 5-6 people are now on the biggest Slingshot wing (84cm and 2088cm3) in the greater Seattle area simply because nothing else can touch it for light wind use. It points upwind better than most casual formula sailors at a similar overall VMG while happily flying in 8-10mph with a 7.0 all while being easy to use and still fun.

Getting upwind is more about the sail and technique, less about the foil. Max speed is a totally different situation with the fastest locals hitting upper 20s fairly often using 7-8.6m sails and mostly AFS foils.
in Miami, we have one guy on slingshot but starboard race carbon and Tillo custom outperform in light wind and around the course. Alex (Tillo int) built 94 cm front wing that has crazy upwind and light wind performance, so toys do matter.
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SergioKapul



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SergioKapul wrote:
grantmac017 wrote:
Something like 5-6 people are now on the biggest Slingshot wing (84cm and 2088cm3) in the greater Seattle area simply because nothing else can touch it for light wind use. It points upwind better than most casual formula sailors at a similar overall VMG while happily flying in 8-10mph with a 7.0 all while being easy to use and still fun.

Getting upwind is more about the sail and technique, less about the foil. Max speed is a totally different situation with the fastest locals hitting upper 20s fairly often using 7-8.6m sails and mostly AFS foils.
in Miami, we have one guy on slingshot but starboard race carbon and Tillo custom outperform in light wind and around the course. Alex (Tillo int) built 94 cm front wing that has crazy upwind and light wind performance, so toys do matter.

Re-read description of slingshot wind, don't think local guy has one, think he's one size smaller, would be interesting to see how it perform.
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 569

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does his wing have a raw carbon finish with orange edges? And is it much lighter weight?

The new wings are a lot more sophisticated than the first generation. They are limited by the poorly engineered rest of the system unfortunately.
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SergioKapul



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
Does his wing have a raw carbon finish with orange edges? And is it much lighter weight?

The new wings are a lot more sophisticated than the first generation. They are limited by the poorly engineered rest of the system unfortunately.
don't think so, he got it maybe 6 months ago. As for design and finish, it does look a bit crude,, that's among other reasons I stick with custom toys, plus I have my say in the design and since guy is in Miami get to try new stuff, some are coming in next month... It's exciting times with windfoil development.
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