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Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch
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philodog



Joined: 28 Apr 2000
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
In fact, I tried yesterday to emulate that classic "Take your front/windward heel out of its strap and place it sideways across the board's centerline. Cross the other/lee foot across the centerline so your two feet are adjacent, one pointing left and one pointing right. Keep your knees bent enough to absorb the chop and ACTUALLY SAIL THIS WAY for a few meters."

Can more than two freaks in the whole world do that? I tried just the foot-crossing part of that yesterday at a 5% effort level and no speed whatsoever IN MY LIVING ROOM, and today am crippled with by FAR the most painful, disabling trigger point I have ever experienced.


Yes, more than two freaks in the whole world can do this. Actually thousands of windsurfers do this without hurting themselves. You have been doing it wrong for 30 years. I made a short instructional video for you on proper step jibe technique. This is really how complicated it is.

https://youtu.be/6jOlPd36iRs
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18692

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
At least in a step jibe when I shift my weight from one foot to another I can transfer the energy to MFP so I can maintain control while switching my feet. If I jump & flip the sail at the same time I lose control of both and am at the mercy of both the water & wind.

I sometimes slow my jibes down enough to need MFP in chop, but that's (this) operator's error, it takes extra time and space, and it gives my balance time to kick me in the head. I don't know why a momentary gap in footsteering doesn't upset the applecart, but I've almost never perceived a problem with it. A good closeup video may explain that.

coachg wrote:
, like most, I am a visual learner and what you keep describing with your words always turns up like this in my head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2z3yeM5vnc


Slow that video way down and study the 4-second segment, where he initiates the carve as he reaches his sail hand back farther and sheets in. Instead, at that point I've finished oversheeting and am throwing the back hand away to initiate the sail spin, and at the same time throwing the mast hand across my chest to accelerate the spin. Before the end of the 4-second segment, where he's stalled and backwinded (and likely switch stanced) on the new beam reach, I'm sheeted in and accelerating on the new broad reach with both feet already jibed ... IF I so choose and IF I don't jibe the sail too late, as the guy in the video did. But then he's doing a snap jibe, which relies heavily on sail power. A carved jibe, OTOH, presumes and uses momentum and bank to turn.

I appreciate the risk some of you accurately suggest of replacing reality with imagination, that only a video can represent honestly what really happened. If i had done this only a few times, I'd suspect self-delusion. However, the very first time I tried it would have put me into a sand dune head-on at full speed if I had delayed one or two seconds longer. After literally the 20,000th time, I think I had a decent picture of how it works. The 40,000th time REALLY convinced me.

The living room plie over-rotated my femur and sent my TFL into severe rebellion. It will take weeks to restore normal range and function to the screaming nerves and muscle damage and many more weeks to reduce latent (imperceptible) damage. Recurrence will remain a lifetime threat due to this injury, and some risk of complete and permanent rupture of the entire TLF muscle and tendon structure from pelvis to mid-calf will always remain because the injury changes the chemistry of its environment to embrittle the muscle and its tendons. (A knee ligament rupture does the same thing, almost promising arthritis in that knee within a decade even for young athletes.)

So, no, I ain't gonna do another plie and video it. Sad

And there's no way in hell I'm going to try that footwork on the water. It was too complicated when I was 48 and is apparently dangerous at 75.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18692

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

philodog wrote:
You have been doing it wrong for 30 years. I made a short instructional video for you on proper step jibe technique. This is really how complicated it is.

https://youtu.be/6jOlPd36iRs

Thanks for the video, but I can't dance for crap and I couldn't manage all that footwork in the midst of the OTHER 11 steps of a jibe. And now, with no more speed and effort than you demonstrate in your video*, I sustained my worst injury since July 4, 2013. I don't recall any injuries with this much long-term threat in my lifetime of stupid sports. We won't know soon, but if this had happened months ago, it might have cost me a season. As it is, I may have to cancel one of my lifetime prescription drugs, which was the first question my provider asked me about today: "Are you on Metformin?"

* My feet were closer to parallel than yours, certainly not at the extreme of the ballet dancer shots but very much like the angles shown in the instructional video posted a couple of pages ago.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9132

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh my goodness, the stress and trials of this thread are resulting in life threatening physical outcomes for isobars' wellbeing. I guess the good news is that he still has the fortitude to post at length here, so all is not lost, at least not yet.

Last edited by swchandler on Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18692

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch Reply with quote

philodog wrote:
The key to planing out is to learn to sail toeside for a while. ... Sailing swell toeside is SO much more fun than heelside (normal sailing stance).

Presuming toesde = switchstance, there's no way I'm ever going to try that in footstraps. When it happens to me accidentally*, I do whatever it takes to remedy the threat as quickly as possible. It traps my front foot in its strap, wherein a simple fall can destroy an ankle and/or a knee. On my strapless windSUP that was fun; strapped in, it's too dangerous for my blood and skills. I felt safer racing open class dirt bikes across untracked southern Utah canyonlands.

* Two ways:
1. I thought my front foot was loose in its strap but it wasn't.
2. I intended to slash 90 degrees but instead slashed 100 to 180.

Besides, even if I could master that jig, I simply prefer faster, tighter jibes. The best ones overpower my quad strength due to the g forces on my back leg.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18692

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
There is a third "almost" option: quickly drop your weight. While you'd dropping, the pressure on your feet is reduced a lot (but not quite fully). That can actually be quite useful to keep your feet light in parts of the jibe, for example while stepping - light feet are less likely to sink the tail or wobble the board.

It's also a valuable trick when, on a full plane, you glimpse a fish net or log as it disappears beneath the nose of the board. There's absolutely no time to do but three things: jerk your knees up towards your face, pray, and tighten your sphincter. It's too late to dodge, bail, change out that 50 cm dagger for a 22 cm wave fin, or complete this sentence: "Holy sh ...". It's worked twice for me, but I'm not counting on a third try.
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daviddk



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
philodog wrote:
The key to planing out is to learn to sail toeside for a while. ... Sailing swell toeside is SO much more fun than heelside (normal sailing stance).

Presuming toesde = switchstance, there's no way I'm ever going to try that in footstraps.


I believe he was talking to the OP who is actually interested in improving his windsurfing rather than staying in a rut for 30 years like you. Please refrain from interjecting your negative opinions in every post.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18692

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sez one of the most negative, often vicious, ironic naysayers in all of iW. I can't imagine a bigger, deeper, less imaginative, more constraining, time- and ground- and chop-consuming rut than the step jibe for an OP whose stated objectives include freestyle and waves and exclude racing.

BTW, the earth revolves around the sun.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1702

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
I can't imagine a bigger, deeper, less imaginative, more constraining, time- and ground- and chop-consuming rut than the step jibe for an OP whose stated objectives include freestyle and waves and exclude racing.


That's because you have limited experience, and as you've mentioned before you weren't able to benefit from the world of high quality windsurfing instruction that's existed for at least 20 years.

1. The step jibe is the fastest planing jibe to learn, and the most versatile (though some people learn to plane through on duck jibes first. More should try adding the duck jibe to the learning process.)

2. Excessively running downwind, and or slapping into the back of chop is mediocre jibing no matter what the rig and footwork strategy is.

3. Anyone working on freestyle needs to develop the facility and mind set that ALL sequences and orientations are workable. Sail first or feet first. Regular or switchstance. Mast first or clew first. One hand or two etc. "Hopping Howie" (nice citation boardsurfr!) throws a world of moves and is great fun to watch...he can also step jibe.

4. re "I can't imagine" you imagine yourself jibing throwing walls of water and having "no discernible loss of speed" (so its natural you have an aversion to video.) A sailor who can manage to only lose 5mph of board speed in a jibe is ripping (unless they're coming in slow to begin with) but if you can't discern a loss of 5mph you're a poor judge of speed. And perhaps "walls of water".

_________________
Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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philodog



Joined: 28 Apr 2000
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be careful PP. You are risking getting put in his 'kill file' with those words. Then you'll be sorry Laughing Laughing Laughing

ps 1, 2 & 3 are spot on.
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