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Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1068

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanWeiss wrote:
... assuming you lack the ability to levitate

Maybe that's where you are wrong?

DanWeiss wrote:

Only two options in physics to release your weight-bearing feet: hang from something or jump (incl. being thrust upward).

There is a third "almost" option: quickly drop your weight. While you'd dropping, the pressure on your feet is reduced a lot (but not quite fully). That can actually be quite useful to keep your feet light in parts of the jibe, for example while stepping - light feet are less likely to sink the tail or wobble the board.

Perhaps we are just not understanding what isobars is doing (since his jibes are too fast and furious to be captured on video). What if he carves so hard that his head is below his feet? Would that not remove weight from his feet? It would also work perfectly with the no-handed sail flip, since the sail would just fall into his hands!

I sometimes find myself with my feet above my head in the middle of the jibe. That usually (or perhaps always) requires a waterstart a bit later, but maybe that's just my lack of skills, possibly combined with my foolish believe that the laws of physics govern my sailing.
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philodog



Joined: 28 Apr 2000
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
Is it worth trying a different approach and working on flipping first? Just keep grinding until the pieces fit?
.


I'm going back to page one since this question was never really answered. IMHO learning to step/flip jibe when you are first learning is critical . Flip/step is easier to learn in higher winds but it ingrains bad habits that are hard to break. But since you can already step/flip go ahead and start trying flip/step. The key to planing out is to learn to sail toeside for a while. Feels weird at first but with time it becomes comfortable and leads to really cool swell riding. Sailing swell toeside is SO much more fun than heelside (normal sailing stance).
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18709

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanWeiss wrote:
In order to lift a foot we must put that pressure onto something else, like another foot, a hand or something else like a harness. It's simply impossible to simultaneously two feet without hanging from something or being thrust up from below.

Only two options in physics to release your weight-bearing feet: hang from something or jump (incl. being thrust upward). My guess is you unweight your feet by transferring your body weight to the rig and then release the boom.

Am I wrong?

The only thing you got right was the word "jump". Can you not stand flatfooted and motionless beside a tennis net, bend your knees, and jump over the net? I'm too smart and old to try it now, but it was easy last time I played any tennis. But then my "jump" in this case is mere inches, not 36 of them, and only then if I'm jibing over a sharp-topped, very high piece of chop. I might do that once or twice a day if the terrain is THAT rough as I'm jibing. Anything less and I simply unweigh my feet and slide them from port to starboard. If I need to get my weight forward of the exit windward footstrap to avoid sinking the tail, a la step jibe but without all the fancy step jibe footwork, I'll let that foot lift off the deck enough to clear that strap. Probably the highest jump I've ever made off the deck was a whopping foot, and only in desperation at high speed on top of waist-high chop.

As I've posted before, stand up right where you're reading this. Stagger your feet in a rough approximation of a sailing stance. With the tiniest, almost imperceptible hop, unweight your feet, switch your them into the next tack by sliding them across the floor ... port to starboard or vice versa. What's that take ... a quarter of a second, if that? (Hint: don't try it wearing golf shoes on a carpet.) PLENTY of time to get that part of the jibe done while the sail spins around. If I need to push down on my boom, I've done something wrong or am baaaarrrely powered.

Again, this works whether I'm overpowered or slogging at 3 mph. The former is a carve, the latter a pivot, but the sail handling and footwork concepts are the same. In addition, the powerful sail spin accelerates the board's pivot as an equal but opposite reaction.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18709

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
Plus, add the centrifugal force of the jibe and one's weight is increased making it harder to jump while "throwing up a wall of water".

I am guessing the Iso's jump is more of a quick step, step.

It ranges from independent and sequential steps with minimal if any sliding, to simultaneous unweighted sliding, to the rare "levitation" aka lifting one or both feet off the deck if necessary. Timing can be during or after the sail jibe. Such decisions are usually subconscious and depend on many factors.

Guys, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. I found and still find this much simpler than the classic step jibe. In fact, I tried yesterday to emulate that classic "Take your front/windward heel out of its strap and place it sideways across the board's centerline. Cross the other/lee foot across the centerline so your two feet are adjacent, one pointing left and one pointing right. Keep your knees bent enough to absorb the chop and ACTUALLY SAIL THIS WAY for a few meters."

YOU'RE SHITTING ME!!!



Can more than two freaks in the whole world do that? I tried just the foot-crossing part of that yesterday at a 5% effort level and no speed whatsoever IN MY LIVING ROOM, and today am crippled with by FAR the most painful, disabling trigger point I have ever experienced. If I recruit my quads in that leg, my rectus femoris explodes in pain worse than what I felt after I fractured my femur and tibia and snapped my ACL and after the resulting surgery. I only HOPE my gifted kinesiologist can get me walking again this week, maybe even sailing again before October. I am most definitely not Baryshnikov, Fonteyn, or a rubber-legged 10 yo girl.


Last edited by isobars on Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1068

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
I am most definitely not Baryshnikov, Fonteyn, or a rubber-legged 10 yo girl.

Are you sure?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18709

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. I just looked.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18709

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you believe I can neither change nor delete either of those duplicate posts? Good job, iW.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2623

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Done. You are welcome.

Coachg
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fxop



Joined: 13 Jun 1998
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you at least post a video of your living room attempt?

Very Happy
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2623

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Can you not stand flatfooted and motionless beside a tennis net, bend your knees, and jump over the net?

Bad analogy. A tennis court does't know I'm even there no matter how high I try to jump. The resulting energy from my jump is merely absorbed by the ground. A windsurf board however, will react to the energy of my jump & landing and for that fraction of a second while I'm in the air is free to do as it pleases. At least in a step jibe when I shift my weight from one foot to another I can transfer the energy to MFP so I can maintain control while switching my feet. If I jump & flip the sail at the same time I lose control of both and am at the mercy of both the water & wind.

Again, like most, I am a visual learner and what you keep describing with your words always turns up like this in my head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2z3yeM5vnc

It works but it is not what the OP was looking for.

Coachg
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