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boardsurfr
Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1266
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 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| alap wrote: | | The biggest one is his advice on loading the back foot straight in the beginning. Combined with "oversheeting" it created a vicious circle for me - the more you sheet, the more you load the back foot, the more the board plows and the more you loose speed. |
Perhaps start by comparing your jibe to Dasher's jibe in the video. That should give you the hint that you are probably not understanding something correctly whenever you disagree with him.
If you oversheet correctly, then it is virtually impossible to have all your weight on your back foot. Oversheeting eliminates the sail pressure as soon as you turn downwind, which brings you into a surfing pose, with (roughly) even weight on both feet. The carve happens because you moved the back foot towards the rail, your weight is on your toes, and your knees and ankles are bent.
A typical reason why windsurfers have weight on the back foot is that they open up the sail, and then end up with pressure in the sail when turning downwind. That requires leaning backward, and will inevitably lead to the tail sinking and the board slowing down when flipping the sail. Another thing that contributes to the problem is a bent front arm. In your video, you're doing both - opening the sail, and bending the front arm.
If you get a Clew-View or another boom mount option, the videos will be much more useful for feedback. With the helmet mount, it's a guessing game what most of your body does. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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I get my tightest (thus no time to coast to a halt) jibes when I aggressively emphasize back/leeward foot pressure during the carve. That requires plenty of entry speed (without which this would just bury the tail and apply the brakes). It also requires that the "other 11 steps" be done much more quickly. That's good if you're quick enough, bad if you can't jibe feet and sail before rounding up in the exit. It was my solution to the gliding-to-a-halt problem I had when teaching myself how to jibe pre-videos. It got me over a major learning hump*, and it still works great in chop (it helps the rail lock in and track more precisely) and when I want to carve as tightly as I can just for the halibut.
• The only successful jiber in our group insisted that we must sail downwind for dozens or even scores of meters to complete a jibe, which meant crossing many rows of chop/swell/speed bumps in the process. I had MUCH more success (finally) when I realized there were other options. |
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alap
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| PeconicPuffin wrote: |
| alap wrote: | | he should be very specific about the primary reason of carving - inclination of the rig into the turn, and loading the mast base (forward commitment). |
No no no. Neither of those will initiate carving. You can do both of those things sailing in a straight line...watch Bonaire freestylers and you'll see it all the time. Rolling the body weight over the carving rail (which includes the back foot applying pressure) is what puts the board on its rail.
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sorry, I somehow forgot to include body weight into the rig equation.
What I shoulda be writing:
he should be very specific about the primary reason of carving - inclination of the rig and the body into the turn, and loading the mast base (forward commitment).
I.e. the centre mass of the combination "your body plus your rig" has to be inside the turn.
Which is in a way is in total agreement with your part: Rolling the body weight over the carving rail
With regards to your statement - which includes the back foot applying pressure - I definetely say - not in the beginning. Back foot pressure grows progressively as the carve progress, from zero to maximum.
Jem Hall is very clear on that and Peter Hart in the link I posted above.
And I unfortunately learned it hard way. And putting the advice to load it very high in the list doesn't help.
| PeconicPuffin wrote: |
The following three things happen simultaneously:
1. The front arm extends the rig forward and into the turn, while
2. The back hand sheets the rig, while
3. Following the extended front arm, the hips come in and over the downwind front footstraps (approximately), which puts the sailor's weight over the carving rail. The back foot is applying some downward pressure. The front foot is driving forward (on some bigger boards it may actually be lifting). Mast foot pressure is keeping the nose down and driving.
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Exactly: simultaneously! Not sequentially, like in his video.
Even one more - bending the feet.
In fact when I do it now, I think 3 things - hands, feet, hips in and forward
I definitely try to keep my back foot light (if I am not overwhelmed by the sheer number of things to address) |
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PeconicPuffin
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| alap wrote: |
he should be very specific about the primary reason of carving - inclination of the rig and the body into the turn, and loading the mast base (forward commitment). |
No. The inclination of the rig has nothing to do with causing the carve. In a duck jibe the mast is inclined steeply into the turn and yet has no effect on board trim. Watch the freestylers. Inclining the rig doesn't carve the board.
| alap wrote: | | With regards to your statement - which includes the back foot applying pressure - I definetely say - not in the beginning. Back foot pressure grows progressively as the carve progress, from zero to maximum. |
The beginning? It absolutely in engaged at the beginning of the carve, as Dasher, Jem, Peter Hart, ABK and everyone agree on.
You would do much better for yourself by focusing on your fundamentals. Boardsurfr nailed it. You need to extend your front arm and sheet in. You're bending your front arm and sheeting out, which throws everything off.
Don't worry about looking for perceived flaws in Dasher's video. There aren't any...it's an excellent instructional on the basic jibe. You need to learn to oversheet the rig as you roll your weight in over the carving rail. Then comes the foot and rig work.
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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com |
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alap
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Boardsrfr: great advice on clew mount
on the subject of oversheeting - have no idea how can you see what you see.
And I know for a fact that this is not my mistake - or put it differently - not my main mistake
like I see that on those 4 jibes hands placement is too forward, like Coach said.
But front hand bent and sheeting out with back hand? Besides this is where I have 95% of my attention...
PP: I don't want to discuss Dasher the god, this may offend you  And I certainly don't want to do this - you already gave me a lot of valuable advice. But you didn't bother to open Peter Hart link, did you?
Once again, you place a weightless foot out of the strap on the rail . If it is loaded - you load the tail and lift the nose. Regardless of this disagreement - thank you for your advice!
Last edited by alap on Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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westender
Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 1288
Location: Portland / Gorge
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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+1
If you're not going fast enough into a turn, you might not energize the forces enough to get the feel???
| dllee wrote: |
Jibing is not reading a book. It's a feel that needs to be acquired. |
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PeconicPuffin
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| alap wrote: | | I don't want to discuss Dasher the god, this may offend you |
I'm not offended. He's not a god. But he, like Andy Brandt and Peter Hart and Guy Cribb and lots of other instructors and people in this thread knows how to plane through a jibe.
When Peter Hart talks about a weightless foot on the rail...this is in the setup before the carve begins. When the sailor initiates the carve, by extending the front arm forward and into the turn, sheeting in with the back hand, while bringing weight forward and in (and yes in involves bending at the ankles and knees), the sailor's body weight rolls onto the back foot, forward through the front foot, and down through the mast base. As is obvious in the photo in the Peter Hart article.
Loading the tail and raising the nose (which is what you are doing) is due to your opening the sail as you carve, and bending your front arm. Boardsurfr described it accurately, and as to your question to him "have no idea how can you see what you see" it's right there in the video.
Have someone shoot video of you jibing from shore...not video from your helmet or board...and compare your posture and rig handling to the Peter Hart photos (or Guy or Jem or Dasher or ABK) and you will see why are not planing through. Your rig handling will bring you to a halt every time.
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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| alap wrote: | | I definitely try to keep my back foot light ... |
Then what is driving you into the turn?
Mast foot pressure? No; it's on the centerline.
Leeward mast tilt? No; the U-joint cancels the roll force a fixed mast would impart. It affects turning/carving only because it helps us get our weight where it needs to be: on the back/inside foot, which is near the rail.)
Leaning the mast forward? No; its purpose is to help us get our own center of gravity forward to weight the nose to reduce porpoising and maintain speed.
Front foot pressure [i.e., the direct result of keeping that back foot light, because SOMETHING has to hold us up and we can't (and don't want to anyway) push down on the boom THAT much] countersteers our carving efforts by depressing the windward rail. The whole point and objective of placing and weighting our back foot near the lee/inside rail is to weight and thus lower that rail. That's how we initiate, maintain, and adjust the radius of our turn. Insufficient back foot weighting = wiiiiiide arc = gliding to a halt before completing the jibe. Some sailors here have advised learners to just carve the turn over and over (the hell with the other 11 steps because no carve = no jibe) until it's second nature, THEN learn to jibe feet and sail. You will find that more lee rail pressure => tighter radius => better exit speed IF entry speed was sufficient.
That inside/back foot is our steering wheel in a jibe. We must use it assertively every time, even aggressively if our entry speed is up to par. |
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alap
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: | | alap wrote: | | I definitely try to keep my back foot light ... |
Then what is driving you into the turn?
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the body+rig inclined into the turn.
what is driving the cyclist into the turn?
exactly the same, 100%
thats a primary force
the secondary force, is the board that is banked
exactly like when the airplane turns (that the only option for the plane).
The lift on the wings is always perpendicular to the wing.
So, if you incline the wing the lift is pointing not directly up, but perpendicular to the wing.
Exactly same with banking the board. The lift from the water will be perpendicular to the surface of the board and it will have a component that is directed to the centre.
So, two forces to the center, one simply from the weight inclined in, another from the trim.
If you load your back foot right in the beginning you are risking to sink the tail and lift the nose. Thats all I am saying.
And not only me - Peter Hart is very articulate on that.
Jem Hall - the weight on back foot in the very beginning is zero and as your jybe progresses it goes from zero to the max when you switch.
Accordingly I now make an extra effort not to overload the back foot, and my board is banked all right, no problem, it kinda banks onto the edge on its own, subconsciously. Plus as I said I go in with absolutely max speed I am capable of and 90% of my attention is dedicated to hands (because this was my weakest link). 10% to feet (because it was kinda dialed in long time ago)
PP: As for me unsheeting in my jibe (and may very well do it)... just can you mark it on timeline... there is 4x slowdown in the end, at what exactly moment do I sheet out and bend my front hand. I can see only the front fist |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| When I wrote: | Then what is driving you into the turn?
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| alap wrote: | | the body+rig inclined into the turn. |
If your back foot is unweighted or too lightly weighted, you can incline your body and rig to lee all ya want and the weight on your front/windward foot will depress the windward rail and drive you windward.
| alap wrote: | | what is driving the cyclist into the turn? |
Gyroscopic forces and the tire radius difference between the center and outer contact lines. Trying to turn my handlebars left is by far is the quickest way to turn right.
| alap wrote: | | thats a primary force |
In sailing, the primary force is the wind. All other forces (besides gravity) derive from that.
| alap wrote: | the secondary force, is the board that is banked
exactly like when the airplane turns |
Correct, but as long as most of our weight rests on the windward foot in a jibing scenario, the board's not going to bank to lee.
| alap wrote: | | If you load your back foot right in the beginning you are risking to sink the tail and lift the nose. |
Thus my insistence on sufficient speed. By definition, if your speed is sufficient to prevent sinking the tail, the tail will not sink. That's aided, of course, by getting our cg forward.
| alap wrote: | | Accordingly I now make an extra effort not to overload the back foot, and my board is banked all right, no problem, it kinda banks onto the edge on its own, subconsciously. |
Nothing I can think of regarding physics just "happens on its own". Our board banks in reaction to the net forces, primary and otherwise, acting on it. Apparently you're putting more weight on that lee foot than you thought, which seems to be a good thing.
| alap wrote: | | Plus as I said I go in with absolutely max speed I am capable of |
So did my bud who felt like he was flyin', when in fact he was barely planing. People often tell me I'm fast, but I get my ass passed often by faster folks. Speed is relative.
| alap wrote: | | 90% of my attention is dedicated to hands (because this was my weakest link). 10% to feet (because it was kinda dialed in long time ago) |
I envy that. It was my recalcitrant feet (and thus my lame carves) that led me to the improved methods that have garnered me decades of positive comments on my jibing. Life-threatening permanent balance impairment, medical isolation of my prefrontal cortex from the rest of my brain, and a bad habit (jibing the sail too late) have all but destroyed it, but I can influence only the latter. I'm working on that. |
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