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Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent conversation folks. Unfortunately I haven't had a day with proper planing conditions for a couple of months so it's been all foiling all the time.
On the other hand this has let me work on foil gybes which seem to be even more sensitive to foot pressure and I think I'm getting that sorted out (I fly until the rig flip most of the time). Just a few hundred more repetitions and I can start focusing on the rig flip.
Also waiting for wind has given me a chance to play around with sub planing duck gybes and ducking the rig then flipping while cruising in a straight line. I can see how the setup for the duck is like the ultimate oversheet.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19119

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never tried foiling, but watching it gives me the impression that jibing a foil on a full plane would be enhanced greatly by very rapid boom-to-boom flips. Done right, their transition from one tack to the other is extremely smooth, can be done at a broad range of points of sail, and takes much less than one second. This disturbs everything very little and keeps the board under power almost all the way around the bend.
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anything the carve is slower and requires more subtle foot pressure. I certainly can't slam it around in a second.
The sails stays very light when you do it right but you have to stay sheeted in then flip quick. I haven't gotten this part yet.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19119

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
If anything the carve is slower and requires more subtle foot pressure. I certainly can't slam it around in a second.

After 17 tries ...

I'm suggesting flipping the sail quickly; that doesn't depend on a quick carve. The goal is for the sailor, not the wind, to jibe the sail. Waiting for the wind all but guarantees a stall.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
waiting for wind has given me a chance to play around with sub planing duck gybes and ducking the rig then flipping while cruising in a straight line. I can see how the setup for the duck is like the ultimate oversheet.


Flipping the sail to clew first while sailing straight is a great skill, and definitely practice for planing duck jibes. The set up for the planing duck is not, however, the ultimate oversheet. That would get you carved way too far through the turn. In a planing duck jibe the sail is flipped at 4 or 8 on the wind clock...you catch the sail on the new side BEFORE carving through 6. Most of the jibe takes place after the flip Here is a basic duck...6.2 sail, 109 liter board.

https://youtu.be/IoU6tAhWiFY

I barely move the rig forward before letting go with the front hand and initiating the flip. The trick is to start the sail flip sooner than you think you should, but to move calmly...keeping your upper body still and your head looking to where you're carving to (don't look at the sail...or try not to!) and maintain a smooth carve.


Last edited by PeconicPuffin on Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:03 pm; edited 3 times in total
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
grantmac017 wrote:
If anything the carve is slower and requires more subtle foot pressure. I certainly can't slam it around in a second.

After 17 tries ...

I'm suggesting flipping the sail quickly; that doesn't depend on a quick carve. The goal is for the sailor, not the wind, to jibe the sail. Waiting for the wind all but guarantees a stall.


I misunderstood you to mean the gybe itself takes a second. I totally agree that attempting to passively flip on the foil is a recipe for getting slammed, as is opening it slowly. You have to go from full sheet in, to full open, to flip very quickly.
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
grantmac017 wrote:
waiting for wind has given me a chance to play around with sub planing duck gybes and ducking the rig then flipping while cruising in a straight line. I can see how the setup for the duck is like the ultimate oversheet.


Flipping the sail to clew first while sailing straight is a great skill, and definitely practice for planing duck jibes. The set up for the planing duck is not, however, the ultimate oversheet. That would get you carved way too far through the turn. In a planing duck jibe the sail is flipped at 4 or 8 on the wind clock...you catch the sail on the new side BEFORE carving through 6. Most of the jibe takes place after the flip Here is a basic duck...6.2 sail, 109 liter board.

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=IoU6tAhWiFY

I barely move the rig forward before letting go with the front hand and initiating the flip. The trick is to start the sail flip sooner than you think you should, but to move calmly...keeping your upper body still and your head looking to where you're carving to (don't look at the sail...or try not to!) and maintain a smooth carve.


The link won't play for me (takes me to my own videos).

By ultimate oversheet I meant that it manages to take almost all the pressure out of the sail long before you are heading straight off the wind. It also gets the rig powered up very early in the gybe. I've been playing with it during lightwind sessions on my raceboard since that requires power on the outside of the gybe to even turn. Not terribly easy to duck a cammed 8.5
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:

By ultimate oversheet I meant that it manages to take almost all the pressure out of the sail long before you are heading straight off the wind. It also gets the rig powered up very early in the gybe. I've been playing with it during lightwind sessions on my raceboard since that requires power on the outside of the gybe to even turn. Not terribly easy to duck a cammed 8.5


Ah yes, exactly!

I've ducked an 8.8, but didn't plane through.

Try this link:

https://youtu.be/IoU6tAhWiFY

I did a blog post recently about planing through a duck on 7.5 sails (in case you're interested)...for me (5'11") it's as big a sail as I can duck while planing through.

http://www.peconicpuffin.com/the_peconic_puffin/2018/07/duck-jibing-a-75.html

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PP, beautiful videos. On both 6.0 and 7.5 Thank you for sharing

I watched them after pressing Setting->Speed 0.25
and even then I paused them at some frames

impressive how long you sail unhooked, and then slowly incline the mast into the turn (this thing I adopted!)

Do you just let your front hand go? or you throw the mast forward towards the nose simultaneously?

Your old front hand lands on the letter F of Fiberspar boom, not on the clew, like they like to teach you. Far away from the clew. There is a frame when you actually can see the clew and both sides of the frame and your new front hand is grabbing on the new side same distance away from the clew (about the feet or even more). Are you still bending at the knees this moment? Or you are fully extended?

At that moment mast is practically horizontal and boom vertical (boom is about 200+ cm long)?

Do I understand correctly that chop makes duck jybe very difficult to learn? If so at my venue the only option for me is to try it on 7.0 or may be 6.0 . What board should I take? A bit floatier than usual? Like if on 7.0 instead 115 Blast I should take 145 Ray?
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1720

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alap wrote:


impressive how long you sail unhooked, and then slowly incline the mast into the turn (this thing I adopted!)


I was taught this by Dasher and had it reinforced in ABK: Take your time setting up to jibe, unhook without disturbing the board or rig, and make sure you're carrying full speed unhooked. It's the easiest way to save a couple MPH at the beginning of the jibe. It's fairly easy to learn...it requires more discipline and patience than talent.

alap wrote:
Do you just let your front hand go? or you throw the mast forward towards the nose simultaneously?


I just let go (as I slowly incline the mast into the turn). No throw with the front hand.

alap wrote:
Your old front hand lands on the letter F of Fiberspar boom, not on the clew, like they like to teach you. Far away from the clew. There is a frame when you actually can see the clew and both sides of the frame and your new front hand is grabbing on the new side same distance away from the clew (about the feet or even more). Are you still bending at the knees this moment? Or you are fully extended?


I reach back as far as I can comfortably. If I overdo the reaching action I can't keep the board carving steadily. On smaller sails my old front hand goes all the way to the clew, but that's secondary to keeping everything smooth. My knees are bent the entire time.

alap wrote:

Do I understand correctly that chop makes duck jybe very difficult to learn? If so at my venue the only option for me is to try it on 7.0 or may be 6.0 . What board should I take? A bit floatier than usual? Like if on 7.0 instead 115 Blast I should take 145 Ray?


When we duck the sail we lose the ability to control board trim through mast base pressure, so we need smooth water. Flat (and flatish) water, and also in between waves, is what you want. On choppy days if I spot a large flat patch I'll go for a duck there, but for learning you definitely want as little chop as possible.

In terms of board you want a board that carves well. One thing that can fight you is a big fin. I'd go larger board/smaller fin before smaller board/large fin. 7.0 is big to try to learn the duck with. I'd stay with the 6 and perhaps a larger board so you're planing. Foot straps should not be way outside.

Last note (speaking of foot straps) there is no rush to change your feet after the ducked sail is caught. Sail switch-stance for a second or two to let the board keep that sweet undisturbed carve.

Thanks for the kind words!

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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com


Last edited by PeconicPuffin on Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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