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Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19249

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
... posted a video. Is it really that much to ask?

You have absolutely no concept how much you're demanding of my time, nor its impact on me, my wife's time, and my treatments and procedures (eight just this week, scattered over five facilities in two states). The ONLY reason I've spent so much time in this thread has been my mission to help anyone who asks for help with a roadblock that took me far more time and frustration than any other aspect of WSing ... hell, of my life: the planing jibe. Your and others' "My Way or the Highway" attempts to stifle that are uninformed, arrogant, and disgusting, especially considering the huge leaps forward some of us made when we departed from Ye Olde Step Jibe Primer.

Besides, virtually every disparaging comment you, PP, and some others have made in this whole thread about me and my jibes is not only demonstrably false but has been addressed in dozens of other posts.

The ONLY useful comment I remember you making is the issue of perspective. I'll be examining that closely on our next windy day.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9474

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of a posting a video, why don't you ask one of your many friends from the beach to visit the forum here and fill us all in on your unique lightening quick stellar jibes?

I think what we need is someone out there that has seen you perform on the water to give some credibility to your seemingly unbelievable claims. I don't think that I've ever seen anyone carve jibe, spin the sail around, and at the same time jump into the air and switch their stance all in a second or less. Moreover, doing it without losing any of the speed of your reach and creating a formidable wall of water doing it.

Without some third party verification, I think that we have a Walter Mitty fantasy in what you've been saying here.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1210

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
I don't think that I've ever seen anyone carve jibe, spin the sail around, and at the same time jump into the air and switch their stance all in a second or less. Moreover, doing it without losing any of the speed of your reach and creating a formidable wall of water doing it.

And you never will. "Creating a formidable wall of water" requires a considerable amount of energy, which means speed loss. That's quite easy to see in wave sailing, where the speed loss when creating nice spray in a top turn is always accompanied with a noticeable speed loss, even when the best in the world do it, and even if they have the push and "downhill" run from big waves. It's basic physics.

It's all in isobars head. Those of us who have seen movies of what we do on the water know that there is often a big difference in what we think we are doing, and what is really happening.

isobars wrote:
The ONLY reason I've spent so much time in this thread has been my mission to help anyone who asks for help with a roadblock that took me far more time and frustration than any other aspect of WSing ... hell, of my life: the planing jibe.

So, in his own words, the most frustrating and time-consuming roadblock in isobars life was the planing jibe. Quite understandable that he believes "his way" is the best when he finally figured out a way to jibe that worked for him.

I encourage anyone to play around with different types of jibes, and to learn to do a few different ones well. But if you decide to follow isobars advice, you may be in for a similar level of frustration as he was.

Several of the most outspoken critics of isobars in this thread have witnessed good and successful jibe instruction many times at ABK camps. Andy Brandt has taught thousands of camps, with many thousands of windsurfers. Learning to jibe or jibe better is perhaps one of the most common reasons to do an ABK camp. What ABK teaches is based on vast experience, and lectures and teaching continue to evolve and improve over time.

I learned to plane through jibes in my very first ABK camp. My wife learned to jibe during an ABK camp. She learned it properly right way, and planes through jibes in just about any conditions, from marginal on huge slalom gear to crazy windy and choppy on freestyle or wave gear. Learning to jibe, and to plane through jibes, was neither frustrating nor time-consuming for her. Jibing is (almost) boring to her.

I have seen many others with similar experiences, learning planing jibes quickly in ABK camps. Those who, like me, have tried for years on their own first, tend to struggle a bit more, since they have to unlearn deeply ingrained bad habits, but even they tend to make significant progress.

Nobody doubts that isobars deeply believes that his jibes are exactly as he describes. But anyone who has ever had video feedback on his jibes, or who has ever looked at GPS data from jibes, knows that the reality is very different.

So .. do you believe the guy who finally, after lots of time and frustration, came up with a way to jibe that works for him - or those with thousands of hours of experience who have refined the teaching of the planing jibes over many years?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19249

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For at least the 20th time ... the vast majority of you and yours had the luxury of useful lessons and videos during your jibe learning phase. Neither was commercially available, regardless of cost or location, when I went through that period. When a new guy moved to our turf who could jibe, he insisted that we must sail, under power, downwind 100-200 or even more feet to make a planing jibe. I refused to believe that, especially after Monte's TTGG approach worked on my first try. To this day I see no necessity to touch the rig between both hands in the sailing position on port and both hands in the sailing position on starboard. (It's a CHOICE, not a mandate.)

If nothing else, look at virtually EVERY fully planing jibe by ANYONE. A common factor is jibing their feet sequentially with (i.e., before or after but not during) the sail jibe. That's unnecessary, it takes extra time, and at full speed in heavy terrain and gusty wind it increases the risk of getting out of shape or even falling. The nastier the conditions, the more I prefer to jibe my feet during the the sail jibe. I like power and speed and I prefer sinkers, so why would I want to unnecessarily extend the time I spend with my feet and/or sail out of optimal sailing position in rough water?

I have been explaining here for well over a decade that throwing up a sheet of water (just as banking or climbing in an aircraft) takes energy and thus speed out of the system. That's one of maybe 20 reasons I CHOOSE to rig big. But in a quick/tight/fast carved jibe in which power is off for less than a second*, the little speed loss is bracketed and quickly replaced by plenty of power. The observable impact is no loss of speed and often an increase, because I'm bearing off at full throttle as I exit and, if not powered heavily, as I enter.

* I use a ticking electronic metronome on my headband at the gym to be sure I don't fudge the timing in my Superslow strength exercises. That frigging beep beep beep beep beep at one-second intervals is pretty well embedded in my brain. I used that ingrained metronome to time some of my jibes in our last full day of strong winds (30 average -- a 4.2 -- most of the day). Except when I deliberately flipped the rig slowly while planing down a smooth wave face, my unhurried sail jibes* took about 0.6 to 0.7 seconds. If hurried by CHOICE or by conditions, half-second sail jibes were common, easy, smooth, and fun. A 6.2 takes just 2 or 3 more tenths of a second.

* By my long-standing definition, a sail jibe time means the time between both hands on starboard to both hands on port, at the beam-reaching position on the boom. For even greater rotation speed and control, I will change my front grip to palm-up before the sail flip. (Don't waste our time going there; it's been beaten to death.)

Better yet, by the time my hands touch the rig again, my feet are already switched/jibed (if that's what I CHOOSE to do in that jibe) into their new positions appropriate for the conditions. Marginal power/speed or little bitty board = windward foot well forward to avoid stalling (i.e., step jibe weight distribution without all the heel'n'toe BS). Plenty of power/speed/flotation = both feet near their straps ready for full throttle and/or rough terrain or air. Sometimes the harness line engages my roller hook at the same instant my hands touch the boom.

boardsurfr wrote:
1. I encourage anyone to play around with different types of jibes, and to learn to do a few different ones well.

2. But if you decide to follow isobars advice, you may be in for a similar level of frustration as he was.

1. Then you're light years ahead of most of the posters here. Good for you.

2. As discussed so many times, it was my conversion to TTGG that ended my years of frustration with the canned methods.

You guys can kvetch and kibbitz all ya want, but not everyone has the same skillsets, talent, or CHOICES. How many of you would have believed that a man could hit 4 targets, twice each, with a revolver, in 1.06 seconds? Or hit a target 6 times, reload, and hit it another 6 times, all in less than three seconds?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM

Another shooter adds drawing and re-holstering to his mind-numbing shooting speed records.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1210

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
For at least the 20th time ... the vast majority of you and yours had the luxury of useful lessons and videos during your jibe learning phase. Neither was commercially available, regardless of cost or location, when I went through that period.

No lessons when you learned? ABK Boardsports has been around since 1982. They used to be much bigger than today back when windsurfing was popular, with camps at many more locations all over the country.

So you must have discovered your way of jibing after "years of frustration" no later than the early eighties. Boards from that area jibed differently. Professional instructors have adapted what they teach to the changes.
isobars wrote:
boardsurfr wrote:
I encourage anyone to play around with different types of jibes, and to learn to do a few different ones well.

Then you're light years ahead of most of the posters here.

Your perception of reality is quite distorted. You certainly seem to advocate your way, for which no video of anyone doing it seems to exist, as the best, if not the only, way.

Many of those who disagree with you have frequently suggested or even taught many other jibe styles. PeconicPuffin regularly mentioned the advantages of duck jibes; within the ABK system (where coachg teaches), a number of non-planing jibe variations are often taught before planing jibes, and both clew-first and step jibes are taught to anyone learning the planing jibe, quickly followed by duck jibes (and many more variations to anyone who is interested).

The jibe style that you are advocating involves letting go of the rig completely, while at the same time switching both feet. Sure, both of these things can be done - they are part of many freestyle tricks. "Hopping Howie" does beautiful double donkey jibes hopping around the board; and a duck jibe with a sail throw is superior to a duck jibe where you hang on to the boom at all cost. But advising someone learning planing jibes to do both is rather similar to telling them they should learn a switch duck jibe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdFNeE4Ovmo). That is the coolest looking jibe, and there are quite a few sailors who can do it at a near 100% success rate. But trying to learn it as your first planing jibe would be just as frustrating as trying to follow isobars jibe advice.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19249

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
No lessons when you learned? ABK Boardsports has been around since 1982.


Then maybe I missed a chance to learn earlier. I'd never heard of ABK until well into the '90s, after having flown and driven many thousands of miles and spent many hundreds of dollars on the best lessons I could find at the best WSing destinations I could find back then (Corpus, the Gorge, HI). As I've explained MANY times here in much greater detail, those lessons were useless for many reasons.

boardsurfr wrote:
You certainly seem to advocate your way ... as the best, if not the only, way.

Show us where, in any of my hundreds of jibing posts and my world-wide tutorial on jibing, I've claimed it to be the "best" or even HINTED that it's the only way. It has certain advantages, and it worked and still works for many of us on boards of any era. It certainly addresses the OP's dilemmas.

I've made it clear many times that this thread and all my jibing comments apply to normal jibes, not ducks, monkeys, donkeys, gorillas, or any other animals. The video you cited isnít even a planing jibe, and the followup carving jibe lesson after it at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b6gsubwqks
has almost nothing to do with anything Iíve ever experienced or advocated. It takes him from the :35 to the 1:15 markers ... including some slomo ... just to bear off and prepare for the jibe. No WONDER some of you claim a tack is so superior at staying upwind, as heís sailing hundreds of feet downwind BEFORE HE EVEN BEGINS PREPARING FOR HIS JIBE. (I've already jibed board, rig, and feet well before the :38 seconds marker.)

Heís also on smooth water Ö a rare treat most places Iíve sailed. And his feet POINT IN OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS during the step jibe footwork! Who the hell can do that even in their living room, let alone while blasting across chop?

boardsurfr wrote:
The jibe style that you are advocating involves letting go of the rig completely, while at the same time switching both feet. ... But trying to learn it as your first planing jibe would be just as frustrating as trying to follow isobars jibe advice.

Many of us found the opposite to be true. Get over it.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9474

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Us?
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daviddk



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Us' refers to all the voices in his head that tell him how great he is. It can't be anyone in real life as he just said a few pages back "I've never seen anyone else -- since Monte told me to do it in the late '80s -- spin the sail as I'm describing. "
It must be nice living in a fantasy world.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2276
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In order to lift a foot we must put that pressure onto something else, like another foot, a hand or something else like a harness. It's simply impossible to simultaneously two feet without hanging from something or being thrust up from below.

Mike, you wrote, and I quote directly, "The nastier the conditions, the more I prefer to jibe my feet during the the sail jibe."

Since you cannot physically lift 150 lbs (or whatever you weigh) by hanging from your harness or boom while the rig is transitioning, and assuming you lack the ability to levitate, the only other option is you are pushing down on the board and jumping with your foot remaining in the strap across to the other side to land somewhere near enough the other straps to slide in if you choose.

I suspect you think your feet move when the boom is not in your grip but, in fact, you pull down and/or oversheet to unweight your feet. Only then do you release the boom.

I've sailed enough on small boards very wound up in the Gorge to know that the reason folks execute traditional jibes is because they control the board on the new tack. In fairness, I also know how to do a lightning-quick jibe on a swell and "hop" across as you describe, and while it may seem to occur during only during the sail's rotation the feet actually start moving only after pulling down on the booms/oversheeting before the rig actually is released.

Only two options in physics to release your weight-bearing feet: hang from something or jump (incl. being thrust upward). My guess is you unweight your feet by transferring your body weight to the rig and then release the boom.

Am I wrong?
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 3467

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus, add the centrifugal force of the jibe and one's weight is increased making it harder to jump while "throwing up a wall of water".

I am guessing the Iso's jump is more of a quick step, step.
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