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exiting power gybe with speed
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J64TWB



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1263

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure coach is right. It's probably somewhere in the setup. Just looking for that 2 second window where everything happens. Need to find the muscle memory. Kevin's advice seems to apply to me, I think. It's very hard to do everything right in that 2 seconds.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1727

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluefish1 wrote:
I'm sure coach is right. It's probably somewhere in the setup. Just looking for that 2 second window where everything happens. Need to find the muscle memory. Kevin's advice seems to apply to me, I think. It's very hard to do everything right in that 2 seconds.


The set up is the most overlooked portion of the planing jibe, and the easiest to correct (which can give an extra MPH or two...hugely valuable when it's time to flip the sail and switch your feet...the "2 second window where everything happens". Without a quality set up and smooth carve entry, even perfect sail flipping and footwork will rarely keep you planing.

And remember that there are a few dozen trick jibes and freestyle moves that good sailors plane through...jibes with multiple sail flips or no sail flips or footwork pirhouettes and god knows what...and they're all possible to plane out of if your set up and entry carve are high quality.

If you can get someone to shoot some video of you jibing, and you post it here, you'd be able to get a lot of detailed feedback fyi.

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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J64TWB



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1263

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey thanks for the link to Dashers 12 step. Cant wait to watch. You know thinking back, it was super choppy so I couldn't really let things fly, maybe a flatter day would help with speed and feel. In my mind I can feel it and visualize, just need the muscles to do it correctly a few good times. It's real close. Do you find a 7.5 day with a big board easier than a 4.7 day? I was right in the middle trying with 5.5 -6.0.
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jpf18



Joined: 13 Aug 2000
Posts: 265
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluefish1 wrote:
maybe a flatter day
The video's been taken in off-shore conditions using a one size bigger sail and board you'd normally sail in open water for the amount of wind. So don't scratch your head too much as Dasher's pulling off one planing jibe after the other. That being said, all presented in the video is super helpful, that's how I learned. Couple notes from my experience:
Chin-up is super important as it makes you pull in your hips over the board and present yourself at a relatively low weight to the sail and the board.
Before and through the sail flip, never look into the sail, look where you're going, that way you stay light against the sail.
Don't pressure the board with your toes. When you stay sheeted in, the sail projects its power on the inside rail and turns the board around for you. If you end up going straight downwind and don't come around: You didn't stay sheeted in enough, possibly didn't reach back on the boom during initiation.
Search out gusts, you need the power in the sail to pull you through. Personally, after coming around, I like sheeting in clew first hard in an effort to keep planing off the wind. This is also rather elating when you hit it right. Others prefer to flip the sail ASAP (stepping ahead of the mast in the process).
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1727

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluefish1 wrote:
maybe a flatter day would help with speed and feel. In my mind I can feel it and visualize, just need the muscles to do it correctly a few good times. It's real close. Do you find a 7.5 day with a big board easier than a 4.7 day? I was right in the middle trying with 5.5 -6.0.


A flatter day is easier.

Relative to sail size, it depends on how much you weigh. How much do you weigh? For me at 160 lbs, 5.5-6.0 is the easiest. Slightly bigger boards are more forgiving in a jibe. Once it's 7.5 for someone my weight, the size of the rig and the circumference of the jibe start to make planing through more challenging (though doable...I plane through jibes and duck jibes on my 7.5).

Generally speaking, the larger the sail, the further you carve through before initiating the sail flip. If you look at my avatar photo (6.2 sail, 109 liter board) I've just carved past "12" (dead downwind) and am just beginning to initiate the sail flip. Compare that to this jibe on a 4.7 and a 77 liter board...I start the flip earlier though I don't rush it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7Nlr-Ej92E

Whatever the sail size, don't rush your setup. Unhook smoothly, hang down from the boom and keep the board flying smoothly before initiating the carve. Anything you do that's not smooth will rob you of speed. Andy Brandt and ABK say "the slower you move your body, the faster your jibe will be."

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2255
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I weigh 190 lbs. It's easiest for me to jibe an 80 ltr board with a 4.2M
sail on a 6ft swell, and come out with speed. Think of that as smooth water with a gravity assist. But..... The planform of the board really makes
a difference in how easily a board jibes (and exits the jibe). Some boards
almost jibe themselves, others are kinda "technical".

A 7.5 is always harder for me to jibe. I can in fact jibe my 9.5 and exit
planning, but I might actually have to step jibe that(gasp) to exit on a
plane.

-Craig

bluefish1 wrote:
Hey thanks for the link to Dashers 12 step. Cant wait to watch. You know thinking back, it was super choppy so I couldn't really let things fly, maybe a flatter day would help with speed and feel. In my mind I can feel it and visualize, just need the muscles to do it correctly a few good times. It's real close. Do you find a 7.5 day with a big board easier than a 4.7 day? I was right in the middle trying with 5.5 -6.0.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2767

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluefish1 wrote:
Do you find a 7.5 day with a big board easier than a 4.7 day? I was right in the middle trying with 5.5 -6.0.


That is an open ended question. On a 7.5 day the water will be normally flatter but there is likely to be more and larger lulls. The 7.5 will be slower to rotate & you will be sailing in a greater apparent wind. With the 4.7 you will be on a smaller board that is more foot sensitive but will turn easier & quicker. I could keep this up all day but you should get the drift.

Everything can be easier or harder depending on how you approach it. Craig's 6' swell is a perfect example. Seen as a downhill run to aid in the jibe the swell makes it easier. Seen as a mountain that slows down your jibe it becomes harder.

I think your 5.5/6.0 is a good compromise for learning.


Coachg
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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 1211

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A proper size sail tuned for the current wind conditions will be the most likely candidate to plane out of a turn. All things being equal. Lite and gusty wind is difficult to keep speed but the water should be a bit smoother. Big sails rotate slower but have the power to pull you out with speed. Smaller sails rotate effortlessly but lack power on exit to make up for a timing mistake or a wind lull. A smaller turney board requires better timing than a bigger wider board that will glide more on exit. On an on... With time on the water and a bit of skill i vote for the smaller board and properly rigged smaller sail. For someone building skills, go for a bit bigger sail and board. If your slightly over powered on the outside you should be better rigged for less wind on the inside and have the power to plane out of your turns. For me the sweet spot where I sail is 4.7 to 5.5 on a 96 liter Tabou 3s. At 165 lbs. this set up gives me a nice combination of control, power and glide on exit. And fairly smooth water on either side....
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J64TWB



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1263

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting this sport. I know people who learned Vulcans, Spock's, duck gybes and other difficult tricks before learning how to carve gybe. The first thing I learned was the straps / harness and rocket speed. Many many years later a waterstart. Still not good at it with big sails. For a decade all I did was go as fast as I could, tack and repeat. Afraid of trying gybes due to offshore winds pushing me out into the lake with 75 miles of fetch. Fun is fun though. No right or wrong.
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alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in the same situation.
I must say that I had improved dramatically in my jibes in the last year.
I am quiet consistent now in terms of success, and in strong wind too.
Unfortunately also very consistent in loosing speed.

As always I find coach's advice right on the money.
Here is the vid from Tue.
Definitely what I was thinking I was doing is very different from what I was actually doing. My front arm is bend like hell and very little oversheeting. Very pathetic.
Because bad oversheeting and little inclination of a rig at the entry, the arc is wide (and it takes more time)

Also I delay the flip (providing extra time to slow down as a result)

In terms of the recipe for improvement all I have to concentrate now is to add oversheeting together with rig inclination (the trick being not to disrupt other things I pay attention to at the entry Smile )

I am pretty sure that this is the main reason for my speed loss, but will appreciate the additional advice.

The vid is a bit long but there are slowdowns at 25% in the end. And as for analysis moving frame by frame in my video editor with arrow clicks was the most useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw2n8God5zk&t=1s
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