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Tube Battens in Wave Sails not used in Wave Conditions

 
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 673
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:16 pm    Post subject: Tube Battens in Wave Sails not used in Wave Conditions Reply with quote

Where I sail, there are no breaking waves so I've adopted the practice of replacing rod battens with tube battens, especially in wave sails larger than 5.0. This practice helps the sail pull more forward and reduce the backhandedness larger wave sails develop. In sails from 5.7 to 6.9 those rod battens are easily flexed thus moving the draft toward the leech. Installing tube battens really helps limit the draft movement, and thus improves the top speed, but retains the easy handling of wave sails. This is similar to the way Sailworks Hucker and Retro's develop their speed and power. I really like the easy handling, durability, and power of the more powerful wave sails and putting in tube battens only makes sense since there are no waves. Does anyone else do this?

Last edited by thombiz on Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3233

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sometimes, perceptions of power are due to a lack of stability?

as an example, steve gottlieb and i were testing tubes vs not in the kona one 9.8 sail. conditions were 15-25 mph, flattish water.

3 tubes made the sail, otherwise unchanged, very stable and comfortable to the slight detriment of low end planing power. 2 tubes brought back some of the edginess to the feel, but was the right blend in overall performance.

i think, to the point of which sails to use with what modifications are deeply personal, wave sails, quite often, do not match well with racier boards/fins. having a high foot disallows getting a wave sail to achieve an advantageous sail rake for a race board to feel optimized.

if you are a big fan of s/w, retro may be more ideal for you? ever experiment with removing a batten to make the kit feel lighter in corners?

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rswabsin



Joined: 14 May 2000
Posts: 354
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where I sail in NJ, there really isn't much in the way of DTL wave sailing conditions. Still we get some nice steady wind ocean side and its fun to sail and ride the offshore swells. I have an old 6.5 Retro that I love using with my larger freewave boards on the ocean - the low end grunt and light handiling of the Retro works great for me. But I've broken three of the larger original rod battens in the surf and have replaced them with solid rectangular battens that I borrowed from my old retired sails - I just sanded and reshaped these batten to create an elliptical shape similar in cross sectional area to the rod battens. The sail still works and feels great if not a little better.

Rob
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 466

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking about adding a cam and possibly a tube or two for foiling purposes. Hadn't considered removing a batten, which one do you figure?
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thombiz



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 673
Location: Corpus Christi

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the standpoint of solid batten stiffness (resistance to deflection) Ezzy is among the best when it comes to solid battens. Their solid rectangular shaped battens have the right rigidity "designed in" as though designed by a structural engineer. The moment of inertia (design to optimize stiffness) is optimized for each batten, same thing for Sailworks Revo's. One four batten sail I recently owned (not an Ezzy or Sailworks) seemed to miss the mark when it comes to battens holding the optimum shape in the sail. The rods provided were particularly "bendy" and mostly acted to pull the sail to leeward, not forward. It may have worked well on waves, but not on rollers. The shape of the sail when loaded up was more like that of a spinnaker than a mainsail. Mostly, it wanted to pull you downwind. I replaced the bottom 2 with tubes and this helped move the pull forward, but the draft was so shallow that the sail was better suited to someone much smaller than me.

On a recent "new to me" Goya Eclipse 6.8, I replaced the bottom 3. The two above the boom became tubes and the bottom became a tapered solid. The difference was amazing. There was a definite forward pull in the sail that wasn't there before, and there seemed to be no losses in the handling and maneuver side of things. The sail felt OK before, but felt great with the new battens. There was a definite improvement in the "top speed", but it is nowhere near as fast as a good race sail. It still worked great in modulating speed to optimize placement in the rollers which is what I was looking for. Sometimes I want to speed up to catch a good roller I can see forming infront of me, and sometimes I want to slow down and not outrun the roller I'm on.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 4634
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not all but most of my sails have carbon tube battens , never thought about changing them
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bamer



Joined: 16 Nov 2016
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't done this because all my sails have tubes (which I do tune for stiffness), but if one has the knowledge and materials and isn't sailing in breaking waves, it seems like a good thing to try.

When Barry Spanier was designing for Gaastra he made a sail called the Echo which had four battens, all tubed. Pretty sure sizing was from like 5.5-7.5m. They were super light, had amazing range, great feel, were very stable, and fast.

I used to sail the 7m with a Naish Hybrid 110, showing up late in the day on a dying breeze. Would start out significantly over powered, be perfect for a while, and then under powered as the wind faded. The sail worked like a champ all the way through: it was just as good at being stable in the beginning pressure as it was easy to pump when the wind backed off.

Playing with battens is pretty powerful way to tune or optimize a sail. Sometimes the difference between a great sail and something pretty awful has more to do with the battens than anything else.
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wsurfn1426



Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob:

My most used sizes are 6.3 and 5.9. The 2009-2012 Severne S-1 (5 batten) in these two larger "freestyle" versions used tube battens in the two battens above the boom. Presumably, they were not meant for use in waves.

When the S-1 became a dedicated wave only sail, and the new Freek a freestyle, the S-1 went 4 batten, and Freek 5 batten. 5.9 and 6.3 only in Freeks.

When I had to replace my 5.9 and 6.3 S-1s with 2015 Freeks, they had all rod battens. I felt they really deformed in stronger winds, so I swapped out the tubes battens from my old 5.9 S-1 and put them in the Freek. Better.

For the 6.3, I have to rig it on a stiffer 460 mast (did not replace the battens). I really loved the softness/lightness of the 430 in the 6.3 S-1.

I have a 2017 Freek 5.9, at the current design is better than 2015. I have not decided on a 2018 6.3 Freek yet.
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