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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16660
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:34 am    Post subject: The Catholic Church Reply with quote

Mrgybe is not in the habit of responding to what people write, instead he misinterprets their posts to spout right wing nonsense. His latest deserves a separate topic.

Quote:
Still seething about someone calling out his anti Catholic comments six years ago.....part of a pattern of similar anti Catholic comments. I encourage anyone to read the specific exchange that still keeps him up at night and draw your own conclusions.


Gybe seems to have two items of faith--the infallibility of the oil companies and the Catholic church. Since both have fallen dramatically in popularity, he is understandably defensive when criticism comes their way. But he fails to understand that the common problem that has led to their loss of credibility is their pattern of lying about their behavior.

There is a difference between the Catholic laity and the Catholic hierarchy that I suspect mrgybe understands. I grew up Catholic, going to Catholic schools, and knew hundreds of good Catholics who were comforted by their faith. I recognize the value of that. But I also had experience with the male adults of the Knights of Columbus, who used their role in the church for social status, and had the same sanctimonious attitude that mrgybe displays. People of quiet faith who inspire me are seldom sanctimonious.

So what was the church doing while I was an altar boy learning the Latin responses to the liturgy? Abusing children and covering it up. In the United States alone, more than 30 bishops and archbishops have been accused of either sexual abuse or covering up the abuse of others. The BBC reports that tens of thousands of children were abused--and the churches response was to protect the abusers, not the children. The church has paid over $4 billion in sex abuse claims, and the evidence is that the cover-up in the church went into the Vatican. This effort was a criminal conspiracy.

My point then, and now, is that the US Bishops organization has no moral high ground to stand on and lecture the country about women's health issues like contraception. What moral high ground it once had it gave away, and as the sexual shenanigans in the Vatican hierarchy have come to light, the church has demonstrated that an organization that denies women a vote in setting spiritual policy has developed a very warped and kinky view of sexuality. It can be seen in its full hypocrisy as Clarence Thomas rants about established abortion law, describing the D & C method which Alabama unsuccessfully tried to ban as “abortion via live dismemberment.” In the same week, Mohammed bin Salman, who ordered the actual dismemberment of Jamal Khashoggi and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of children in Yemen, was feted by Trump.

The second point that I make about the Catholic bishops in the US is that they have become a very dark and partisan political force, in contravention to both the Constitutional protections of freedom of religion, and law. Churches in the United States, and those who donate to them, enjoy the benefits of exemption from taxation on their property, their purchases, and part of their donations. That is worth more than $70 billion a year in absolving churches from taxes, and lets donors get tax relief from at least $80 billion a year in donations. In effect, those of us who do not belong to a church subsidize those who do.

In exchange for this tax exempt status, "a charitable nonprofit promises the federal government that it will not engage in “political campaign activity” and if it does, IRS regulations mandate that the charitable nonprofit will lose its tax-exempt status." (National Council of Nonprofits). Many churches in this country ignore this requirement, and the Catholic Church has been particularly partisan in its support for both restrictions on birth control services, and candidates. In an increasing number of areas, the Church has moved into the health care field, and its hospitals are second guessing women's doctors on issues including birth control and hysterectomies, not merely abortion.

Religion and spirituality are wonderful things. But in this country, we have the freedom to practice the religion of our choice--including no religion at all. I object to subsidizing a religious organization that infringes on my rights.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16660
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imagine that, a sanctimonious--and corrupt--Catholic bishop.

Quote:
Michael J. Bransfield, then-bishop of the Diocese of Wheeling-Charleston, W.Va., in 2015. (Scott McCloskey/Intelligencer/AP)
By Robert O'Harrow Jr. and
Shawn Boburg July 3 at 10:19 AM
Senior Catholic leaders in the United States and the Vatican began receiving warnings about West Virginia Bishop Michael J. Bransfield as far back as 2012. In letters and emails, parishioners claimed that Bransfield was abusing his power and misspending church money on luxuries such as a personal chef, a chauffeur, first-class travel abroad and more than $1 million in renovations to his residence.

“I beg of you to please look into this situation,” Linda Abrahamian, a parishioner from Martinsburg, W.Va., wrote in 2013 to the pope’s ambassador to the United States.

But Bransfield’s conduct went unchecked for five more years. He resigned in September 2018 after one of his closest aides came forward with an incendiary inside account of years of sexual and financial misconduct, including the claim that Bransfield sought to “purchase influence” by giving hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash gifts to senior Catholic leaders.
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mat-ty



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7843

PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
Imagine that, a sanctimonious--and corrupt--Catholic bishop.

Quote:
Michael J. Bransfield, then-bishop of the Diocese of Wheeling-Charleston, W.Va., in 2015. (Scott McCloskey/Intelligencer/AP)
By Robert O'Harrow Jr. and
Shawn Boburg July 3 at 10:19 AM
Senior Catholic leaders in the United States and the Vatican began receiving warnings about West Virginia Bishop Michael J. Bransfield as far back as 2012. In letters and emails, parishioners claimed that Bransfield was abusing his power and misspending church money on luxuries such as a personal chef, a chauffeur, first-class travel abroad and more than $1 million in renovations to his residence.

“I beg of you to please look into this situation,” Linda Abrahamian, a parishioner from Martinsburg, W.Va., wrote in 2013 to the pope’s ambassador to the United States.

But Bransfield’s conduct went unchecked for five more years. He resigned in September 2018 after one of his closest aides came forward with an incendiary inside account of years of sexual and financial misconduct, including the claim that Bransfield sought to “purchase influence” by giving hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash gifts to senior Catholic leaders.



I can't image spending one day in your hateful shoes.....you really are a pathetic POS.
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MalibuGuru



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 8812

PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm certain that there are plenty of Berkeley inhabitants who are child molesters....
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16660
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MalibuGuru wrote:
I'm certain that there are plenty of Berkeley inhabitants who are child molesters....


You have to be kidding me. You idiots play Johnny did it when yet another catholic Bishop—the hierarchy of the church—is caught? Does it occur to you that the church is failing to pay attention to its religious guides?

But what would I expect of people who celebrate Trump’s crimes and cruelty.
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mat-ty



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7843

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
MalibuGuru wrote:
I'm certain that there are plenty of Berkeley inhabitants who are child molesters....


You have to be kidding me. You idiots play Johnny did it when yet another catholic Bishop—the hierarchy of the church—is caught? Does it occur to you that the church is failing to pay attention to its religious guides?

But what would I expect of people who celebrate Trump’s crimes and cruelty.


Crimes????? only in your mind....Cruelty?????? fabricated and hypocritical BS.

The Catholic Church has some serious problems...But just once I would like to see a coward like you call out Islam and its violent and disgusting treatment of woman , children, and gays......the sound of silence.... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16660
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matty again demonstrates the right wing phenomenon of trying to make up positions for those they disagree with. He adds his own personal touch of bigotry and ignorance.

I have indeed posted strong criticism of some of the Muslim sects--specifically the Wahhabi movement--which preach abhorrent things and violence. I also despair at the Sunni/Shia schism, which has persisted for centuries. But none of those sects are centered in the United States. There are fundamental differences between the religions, and in particularly the hierarchical structures, that goes right over the head of bigots like Matty.

There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world, more than the 1.2 billion Catholics. But the Muslim religion has no structured hierarchy or organized clergy--in that respect it is more like evangelical Christianity than Catholicism.

In the United States there are about 72 million Catholics and about 90 million evangelicals according to the Pew Center. The Catholic church has a rigid hierarchy, and a doctrine of infallibility for the Pope when he is speaking on matters of faith. The nature of evangelical Christianity and Muslim communities is instead very disorganized and non-hierarchical. My brother became an evangelical minister and has preached in any number of tiny communities in New Mexico.

I have nothing against any of these faiths--the vast majority of their written materials support charity, particularly to those disrupted by war in their homes. Religious beliefs provide comfort and community for those who believe, and in this country we are free to believe--or not believe--as we choose.

The nature of all of these religions differs in the country and community where they are centered. French Catholicism is different from American Catholicism, and the sects in Iran and Saudi Arabia are fighting proxy wars throughout the Middle East that are killing more children than the Border Patrol

The objections that I raise have to do with the ties between country and religion, and particularly with the Catholic Bishops siding with their priests, not with their followers. There are people in all faiths that live evil lives--but the Catholic Church is unique in having covered up sexual abuse and financial crimes for decades. Some of this is, in my opinion, tied to the Catholic's church's requirement of chastity for priests and misogyny.

Right over Matty's head. Too much earwax?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16660
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
At St. Mary’s Catholic Church in the Central Area, a figure of Saint Patrick hints at the parish’s Irish roots. It is one of three churches in Seattle the Archdiocese plans to close amid declining attendance. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
At Our Lady of Mount Virgin Catholic Church in Seattle, Auxiliary Bishop Daniel Mueggenborg speaks to the congregation about the church’s planned closure. Father Hung Nguyen, pastor of the church, listens at left. The church, founded in 1911, has a history of serving immigrants, from Italy in its early days to those from China, Vietnam and Laos today. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Parishioners attend Sunday Mass at St. Patrick Catholic Church in the North Capitol Hill neighborhood of Seattle. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
People file out of a Spanish Mass at St. Mary’s on a recent Sunday, attended by about 100 parishioners of all ages. Earlier in the day, some 20 people came for the English Mass. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
At Our Lady of Mount Virgin Catholic Church in the Mount Baker neighborhood, Joseph Tseng, president of the Seattle Chinese Catholic Community, speaks during a meeting about the planned closure of the church. He said parishioners have a dire need for a Chinese-language Mass. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
A sparse crowd of roughly 20 people attend St. Mary’s Sunday Mass in English, far fewer than came to the Spanish Mass a few hours later. Because of the pandemic, some parishioners are still celebrating Mass online. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Larry Pitre, left, and Ed Hill grew up at St. Mary’s in the Central Area, and still attend today. Pitre sees the church’s planned closure as another sign of gentrification. Hill, board chair of the Food Bank at St. Mary’s, worries for its future, though its executive director said it will continue operating across from the church for the foreseeable future. It is the city’s second-largest food bank. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
The Archdiocese says it expects English-speaking parishioners to move to St. Therese in Madrona, which does not have a Spanish Mass, but many don’t want to split up the parish. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
“They never said anything about what was going to happen to the Latino community,” says a St. Mary’s parishioner. It felt disrespectful. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Father Reynaldo Yu consecrates the Eucharist during Sunday Mass at Saint Mary’s Catholic Church in the Central Area. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Parishioners attend Sunday Mass at St. Patrick Catholic Church in North Capitol Hill. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Robin Rowedder, left, interprets through tactile signing and sings with Jeremy Sasser, during Sunday Mass at St. Patrick Catholic Church in North Capitol Hill. St. Patrick is known for being highly accessible to not just the deaf and blind communities, but people from the L’Arche Noah Sealth of Seattle, a community for people with and without intellectual disabilities. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Name tags of parishioners hang on the wall during Sunday Mass at St. Patrick Catholic Church in North Capitol Hill. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Deacon Dennis Kelly speaks to parishioners attending Sunday Mass at St. Patrick Catholic Church. Kelly recently met with Archbishop Paul Etienne, Bishop Daniel Mueggenborg and Strategic Planning Director Leigh Stringfellow about the Archdiocese’s plan to close the church and merge the congregation elsewhere. Kelly talked about the parish’s recent modest growth, stability and unique commitment to serving marginalized people, especially in the deaf, blind and disabled communities. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
During Sunday mass at St. Patrick Catholic Church, Robert J. Steppler, left, known as “RJS,” is deaf and blind, and listens to mass with assistance from Eric Scheir, who is deaf and interpreting from visual sign language to tactile sign language. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
At Sunday Mass in late July, musicians and singers lead St. Patrick parishioners in song. It’s the first time they did so in person since the start of the coronavirus pandemic. Music director Laura Ash, sits at the piano. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
St. Patrick prides itself on inclusivity for people who have been historically marginalized in church settings, including LGBTQ+ people and folks with various disabilities. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Parishioners leave a meeting on the planned closure of Our Lady of Mount Virgin Catholic Church in Mount Baker. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
“I planned to have my funeral here,” says Emmy Purainer, a lifelong parishioner of Our Lady of Mount Virgin, explaining she “won’t stand for” closing the church. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Father Hung Nguyen, pastor of Our Lady of Mount Virgin Catholic Church in Seattle, listens to feedback from parishioners with Bishop Daniel Mueggenborg, right, during a meeting about the planned closure of the parish. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
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1 of 21 | At St. Mary’s Catholic Church in the Central Area, a figure of Saint Patrick hints at the parish’s Irish roots. It is one of three churches in Seattle the Archdiocese plans to close amid declining attendance. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Nina Shapiro By Nina Shapiro
Seattle Times staff reporter
It was a lovely Saturday evening inside Our Lady of Mount Virgin Catholic Church. Light filtered through arched stained glass windows imprinted with dedications to Italian Americans who populated the Mount Baker church after its founding in 1911. Some were open to let in a breeze for the 5 o’clock Mass, normally in Vietnamese for one of several groups of immigrants the church has since attracted.

An English-speaking guest, Auxiliary Bishop Daniel Mueggenborg, helped conduct Mass on this July night — the prelude to a fateful parish meeting. “Tonight is going to be a difficult evening,” Mueggenborg told the crowd of 150 or so. “There is no way around it.”

The bishop, and a handful of others from the Seattle Archdiocese, came to tell parishioners their church would close.

Two other Seattle churches, St. Mary’s in the Central District and St. Patrick in North Capitol Hill, are also slated to do so, while Immaculate Conception in the Central District and St. Therese in Madrona are tasked with revitalizing themselves.

More shake-ups may follow as the Archdiocese’s “strategic planning” — implemented first in Tacoma, where five parishes are merging together, and now in what is known as the South Seattle Deanery — turns to other areas.

The reasons have been apparent for some time, according to the Archdiocese, which encompasses 174 parishes and missions across Western Washington.

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Parishioners attend Sunday Mass at St. Patrick Catholic Church in the North Capitol Hill neighborhood of Seattle. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Parishioners attend Sunday Mass at St. Patrick Catholic Church in the North Capitol Hill neighborhood of Seattle. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Fewer people are going to church, yet many neighborhood parishes are clustered close together, established at a time when people walked to Mass. The parishes need priests, who are in short supply, and money to maintain buildings often built around the turn of the 20th century — made abundantly clear at now closed Holy Rosary in Tacoma when a piece of ceiling plaster fell into the choir loft in 2019.

A battery of slides delved into the numbers for those gathered. Mass attendance in the Archdiocese fell 15.5% between 1999 and 2018, to about 126,000, though the general population boomed. Catholic baptisms and marriages plummeted even more, by 21.5% and almost 46% respectively.

At Our Lady of Mount Virgin, a spike brought weekend Mass attendance up to 480 seven years ago, but it dropped to around 360, pre-pandemic. Parish income, one slide revealed, declined by about a third in just five years.

The reaction to the bishop and his team was mixed.

“The parish has been our home for decades,” said Joseph Tseng, president of the Seattle Chinese Catholic Community.

At Our Lady of Mount Virgin Catholic Church in the Mount Baker neighborhood, Joseph Tseng, president of the Seattle Chinese Catholic Community, speaks during a meeting about the planned closure of the church. He said parishioners have a dire need for a Chinese-language Mass. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
At Our Lady of Mount Virgin Catholic Church in the Mount Baker neighborhood, Joseph Tseng, president of the Seattle Chinese Catholic Community, speaks during a meeting about the planned closure of the church. He said... (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)More
Emmy Purainer declared: “We’re not easy pushovers.”

She lives two blocks away, has attended the Mount Baker church for more than 60 years, and was visibly distraught. “I planned to have my funeral here,” she said.

So goes the swirl of emotions, laced with suspicion, that has greeted the Archdiocese’s plans in a state where an estimated 17% of adults identify as Catholic, second only to evangelical Protestant among the religiously affiliated.

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Amid sadness and anger, some want to know what will happen to the parishes’ real estate and wonder whether a desire for the millions of dollars to be gained by selling or renting them is driving the closures.

“Right now, it sounds fishy,” said longtime St. Mary’s parishioner Larry Pitre.

“I planned to have my funeral here,” says Emmy Purainer, a lifelong parishioner of Our Lady of Mount Virgin, explaining she “won’t stand for” closing the church. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
“I planned to have my funeral here,” says Emmy Purainer, a lifelong parishioner of Our Lady of Mount Virgin, explaining she “won’t stand for” closing the church. (Bettina Hansen / The Seattle Times)
Liza Neal, a leader in St. Patrick’s social-justice ministry, said she feels the Archdiocese is targeting the Capitol Hill parish because it is viewed as too progressive. Among other things, it has an active outreach to gay Catholics.

“I don’t think this matter is settled,” she said, echoing others at affected parishes who are resisting. They are holding vigils and writing Mueggenborg and Archbishop Paul Etienne. St. Patrick Deacon Dennis Kelly went before the two top officials last month, to plead the parish’s case. Some are even considering leaving the Catholic Church to join other communities, including a movement that ordains women priests.

Fewer people at Mass, more financial strain
In the Archdiocese’s chancery, a block away from soaring St. James Cathedral on First Hill, Mueggenborg said the Archdiocese has no ulterior motive. “It is not an effort to get anyone’s real estate,” said the bishop, who for the last two years has overseen strategic planning, and will leave in September to become the Bishop of Reno.

Like other Catholic jurisdictions, the Archdiocese has been grappling with the fallout from the priest sexual-abuse crisis. An Archdiocese list of questions and answers says more than $113 million it has paid in legal settlements over the last 40 years has come partly from the sale of property, as well as insurance payouts.


I guess they now understand karma.
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