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Anybody on the east coast use a Northwave sail?
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fox



Joined: 09 Sep 1997
Posts: 96
Location: Pine Point, Maine

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I don't post much but I have deep experience on this topic.

I said the construction of my new light weight sail is so minimal it didn't last long. If you look at one you can see what I'm typing about. And make sure you rig it right side up Rolling Eyes

Northwaves have not been my go to sails since I purchased a y2k quiver. I've purchased a few new models since then. I was so disappointed with the performance of an '06 ZX (after being thrilled with an '03 FX) that I ended up returning it years later in exchange for the Featherlite.

The majority of the quality issues I've had were not durability.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18331

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox wrote:
Well I don't post much but I have deep experience on this topic.

So do the hundreds of rabid NW fans I see every summer. They often dominate many Gorge venues, and not one of them would still be rabid if your experience with NWs were common. I recall one season opener years ago (warm, strong, thermally-boosted -- i.e., steady -- winds on a weekend) on which the large crowd were almost all on Northwaves.

fox wrote:
I said the construction of my new light weight sail is so minimal it didn't last long. If you look at one you can see what I'm typing about. And make sure you rig it right side up Rolling Eyes

When I saw and felt how light these Sinewaves are, my first question was "Is this thing going to hold up with these light materials?" Turns out it's the same (or newer and better) materials NWs come with. Besides, users get to specify their materials, as U2 pointed out above. The only new material I know of is in the head, the foot, and immediately behind the luff sleeve, and I was advised not to substitute those lest it affect performance. In particular, my windows and "body" (aka leech) are the same scrim and dacron I've used with 100% durability for years. So, no, I don't know what you're typing about.

Yes, on the rigging side. If we release the downhaul with the sail on port tack, the battens can damage the sleeve. Shame on NW if they didn't make that clear. Another tip: An even worse thing to do is slack the downhaul until the boom opening is stopped by the boom while the outhaul is still tight. That induces stresses a sail just isn't designed to withstand. When derigging, it's OH first, then get the boom out of the way, THEN release and unlace the DH. Maybe your failures were caused by violating that rule.

fox wrote:
I was so disappointed with the performance of an '06 ZX (after being thrilled with an '03 FX) that I ended up returning it years later in exchange for the Featherlite.

I and a few hundred NW devotees are sorry -- and mostly surprised -- to hear that. Possible reasons could start with the fact that ZXs and especially FLs are designed to be rigged flat for top end (i.e, high winds) draft stability and drag reduction (i.e., control and speed) more than bottom end grunt. They NEED to be rigged at least half a meter big to achieve early planing, and they take to it like a fish in water. That's just one of very many reasons I've been razzed for years about rigging so big; the ZX and FL loved to be rigged big. Efficient sailors, who worry about rigging the fewest sq meters they can plane with, should look elsewhere. (I further extended the bottom and top end regimes of my FLs with upgraded battens and extra seam shaping.) My FL 6.2 is still fun until most guys my size are happy on 4.7s.

How about it, Punk? Are you an efficient sailor? Very Happy

How many other sail makers or dealers would swap out a sail years later because a buyer "didn't like it"? I did just that with one NW years ago when I decided I wanted nothing more to do with cams. "Oh, you don't like your year-old cammed NW slalom sail? Well, we'll just build you a new ZX to match the rest of your quiver." Just this year I was whining about my barely used 2012 Surflite, and NW said "Try tuning it THIS way; if it still sucks we'll build you a new one." As they and I suspected, it was my fault, not the sail's. They did have a batch miscut by millimeters years ago, but they and the root cause were quickly remedied.

Another possibility is that you've found a better sail. Surely they must exist, but I've had no reason to look for one. You have, though, and I certainly don't have any complaints about you airing your complaints. NW started the thread, and any positive or negative feedback is fair game IMO.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 4381
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FOX

ignore his name calling, and endless rethoric.

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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 4381
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northwave, a answer to my questions would be nice, I realize that this is a very busy time for you, you did post a thread however.


In no way shape or form do I consider, the childish behavior of some poster a reflection on your establishment.

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wsurfer



Joined: 17 Aug 2000
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isobars...The Naish Sprint is one of the easiest to rig and best performing sails I have ever found (5.2). That said I have never sailed a NW.
Would be willing to try a refurbished/rejected NW in that size if they have one to discard!

I used to think that the North Infinity series were the most bomb proof sails on the planet but now you make me think I should try a NW!
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fox



Joined: 09 Sep 1997
Posts: 96
Location: Pine Point, Maine

PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Likely more efficient then you will ever be. I don't sail in the gorge, with a sail size or two bigger than I need to. And if you are not an east coast sailor why don't you bow out of this particular discussion.

Northwave generally acknowledged all the shortcomings of the sails I didn't like. They even offered to repair this, If I happened to be visiting the gorge with the sail in tow.

I'm sure Northwave is still capable of making an outstanding, durable, rangy, high wind sail; but I'm no longer willing to roll the dice.



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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18331

PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2U2U2 wrote:
ignore his name calling, and endless rethoric.

What name calling? Surely you're familiar with Dirty Harry's line, even if it's only paraphrased?

And WTH's wrong with rhetoric? ... rhetoric: 1 : the art of speaking or writing effectively: such as. a : the study of principles and rules of composition formulated by critics of ancient times. b : the study of writing or speaking as a means of communication or persuasion. 2 a : skill in the effective use of speech.
i.e., rhetoric is a GOOD thing as long as it sticks to facts and supportable opinions.

If you guys would stay on topic rather than focusing personally on the posters, you'd make a lot more sense. And, please, stop lying about posters. It makes you look childish.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18331

PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox wrote:
Likely more efficient then you will ever be. I don't sail in the gorge, with a sail size or two bigger than I need to.


Then the ZX/FL series are not your ideal sails, according to NW's advice to rig big with them.

Robby Naish and Ed Angulo disagree on fin efficiency, too, according to a WSMag article long ago. Robby preferred as big as he can without impeding turning, while Ed preferred the smallest fin that doesn't impede planing. "Efficiency" is about wants and choices, not needs, and isn't even on my priorities list except maybe for my very biggest sail. Anything smaller and I can just rig bigger and fix the problem.

fox wrote:
And if you are not an east coast sailor why don't you bow out of this particular discussion.

My comments address NW sails wherever they go, including the east coast ... and Zimbabwe, and Kansas, and Maui ... and I just follow where the conversation leads (e.g., durability, performance, weight, rigging precautions, efficiency, and other factors not unique to east coast sailing).

fox wrote:
Northwave generally acknowledged all the shortcomings of the sails I didn't like. They even offered to repair this, If I happened to be visiting the gorge with the sail in tow.

Does two-way shipping cost that much? On the sail in the picture, did you release the DH with the OH still attached? Any buyer who had construction or materials problems with more than one sail as you did should, IMO, expect full restitution and/or free shipping and repairs. If "shortcomings" includes mismatches such as buying a 511 for surf sailing or buying a Featherlight for efficiency bragging rights, the blame shifts towards the buyer unless NW misled him.

fox wrote:
I'm sure Northwave is still capable of making an outstanding, durable, rangy, high wind sail; but I'm no longer willing to roll the dice.

I'd feel the same way if I had experienced or seen your problems with them, John. (Keep in mind, though, that simply because my praise for a shaper's boards was not as strong as a poster wanted, the poster accused me of "having it in" for that shaper. Had I published photographs and testimonies of failures, as you have every right to do, I'd have been impeached.)
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18331

PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wsurfer wrote:
Isobars...The Naish Sprint is one of the easiest to rig and best performing sails I have ever found (5.2).

That doesn't surprise me. I've owned many Naish boards, and their performance always blows me away even after taking the tradeoffs into account.

wsurfer wrote:
Would be willing to try a refurbished/rejected NW in that size if they have one to discard!

Easy ... if you lived near the Gorge. There are always lightly (or sometimes even un-) used sails of many makes available at swap meets for low double digits. Twice now I've bought like-new NWs for $50 just to try out a particular model in a particular size. It's cheaper than driving to and from Hood River to demo one, and I can always sell 'em if I need $50 that badly.

wsurfer wrote:
I used to think that the North Infinity series were the most bomb proof sails on the planet but now you make me think I should try a NW!

Depends on how heavily you weight Fox's experiences with them. Were they flukes? Were any root causes found and resolved? Did he damage them with improper rigging? Are NWs better or worse than Infinities in any regard? Will the lighter Sinewave hold up as well as the other NW models? Does my penchant for dacron leeches cost me in performance or durability?

I can answer only the latter question.
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outcast



Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 2630

PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is classic stuff...
Thanks for representing the East Coast.
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