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Wing sail is reality now
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2286
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would if you'd demo me a free one Amigo, now where'd I put my body armor and helmet. ;*)

-Craig

p.s. if your Lincoln does come back it might not come back in the same
condition as it arrived.

isobars wrote:
cgoudie1 wrote:
My friend and I will advertise for you and ride your sails at all the most popular launches in the Gorge (Hatchery, Doug's, The Wall) ...


I doubt wing sails serve any purpose at such venues. Would you autocross a 1965 Lincoln Continental?



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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19388

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgoudie1 wrote:
I would if you'd demo me a free one Amigo, now where'd I put my body armor and helmet.
isobars wrote:
Would you autocross a 1965 Lincoln Continental?

Who'd need body armor and a helmet with all that steel and padded vinyl around them? By the time that front bumper crushed down to the passenger compartment, you'd be rolling down the driver's window and asking for fries with that burger.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4632
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike... I know jumping is not your thing, so I'll forgive your transgression. Setup is not sail design. Tight leeches DO jump higher than mega downhauled sails. Most sails can be tuned for LESS twist for hangtime and higher jumps. Set up can be something as simple as moving the track forward.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19388

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to jump a LOT ... many times per reach, 10 feet commonly, mast high fairly often, up to double mast high on July 4, 2013. However, my comment above came from Bruce and Dale, not me. Certainly setup (aka tuning) matters a lot, but B&D say the Hucker's design contributed significantly to its flight characteristics when tuned for altitude. That the sail also works very well for mortals who de-tune it for blasting (looser leech) instead of nosebleeds (tight leech) is a tribute to their design skills and endless testing.

The compromise becomes apparent when ordinary schmucks like me go B&Jing on a little sinker with the Hucker's leech tuned for altitude; the higher COE tends to drive a small nose downward. It requires closer rider attention and greater effort to keep the nose up on a bittyboard heavily powered by a Hucker rigged in nosebleed mode. Source: B&D and my first-hand experience.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4632
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As said, tight leech and Forward mast base for big jumps.
Base forward is the other key, which is why high jumps are not emphasised. Modern freestyle is track back..spinny yes..height no.
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 859

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
alap wrote:
Also, if the windward side of the sail is flat and the leeward is curved doesn't that mean that one has a bigger surface than another?

I'm no mechanical engineer, but isn't that (longer path thus higher speed around the curved side) the whole point of aerodynamic lift around a thick foil ... i.e., a wing? ... obeying Bernoulli's principle?


Bernoulli only applies within a carburetor. Hasn't been part of wing theory for at least 30 years. It's all about the horizontal (well vertical in our case) trailing edge vortices.


I maintain that this sail has some interesting design items but the execution is lacking.
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killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alap wrote:
killogramm wrote:
Ok , sail is totally asymmetrical, one side is flat and another side curved. I know it is hard to imagine but what can I say. .... Also there is pictures and videos. On I will post a picture here , just to ad cherry on the top.


may be...
tough to see when there are no pictures at all. I mean good quality 3D pictures, not a side view of a sail along the brick wall

so, when you rig it in zero wind - it is not symmetrical? ??
so it has preferred side?

or it is not symmetrical only when under the load?
and in this case once filled with wind it doesn't change the shape when wind changes?

Also, if the windward side of the sail is flat and the leeward is curved doesn't that mean that one has a bigger surface than another? so after you jibe it has to be other way around....

Regardless, you may have an interesting product, but your presentation is awful, sorry to say.
Sail is asymmetrical when rigged on the ground. Inflatable camber inducer does the trick. One side has bigger surface than another, when you flip, leading edge fabric travels around mast to other side.
Pressure 2.5 psa erect profile and at the same time prevent profile from excessive curvature. Inside of sail I have: inflatable over the center mechanism, wrinkle compensation device, rotating cams, and profile restrictors.
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 1177
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it weighs about the same as 3 Northwaves and is more complicated to rig than a race sail and is faster than anything?? Not Gorge tested though.

Windweapon.


Last edited by westender on Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bernoulli rules of course...

but my Q was about pure geometry. If two complete identical skins (triangle panels in this case) are on the left and right sides, and at the same time the windward skin is flat, and the rig is asymmetrical that means that leeward panel is the curved one.

Yet this leeward curve contains the triangle skin...

so how it be?
the only way I can imagine is that there should be extra surface around the mast, i.e. the bladder is shifted to the leeward side. Or put it another way - the front edge of inner triangular skin is closer to the mast than the leading edge of the outer triangular skin...

just trying to wrap (or warp) my mind around this...
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alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks kilogramm... exactly! you posted 2 minutes ahead of me, while I was typing Smile
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