myiW Current Conditions and Forecasts Community Forums Buy and Sell Services
 
Hi guest · myAccount · Log in
 SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   RegisterRegister 
Wing sail is reality now
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 23, 24, 25  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
LUCARO



Joined: 07 Dec 1997
Posts: 489

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It took foils ten years to take off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oyWMusaDTI

just saying...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19175

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OTOH, I was both very impressed and very UNimpressed with the Aeroforce Double Luff sail I tested in about 1992. Its luff sleeve extended maybe 1/3 of the way back from the mast towards the leech, and had no bladder.

PRO:
Completely ignored windspeed fluctuations. Gusts and lulls ceased to exist, as power delivery was like that of an electric motor. Maybe it should have been called the Tesla.

NOTHING knocked it off its intended course. Point it towards a mark and neither nature nor rider input could deflect it noticeably.

They're frigging -F-A-S-T-.

And as steady as a big rock.

CON:
It took two of us half an hour to rig it. That might be fine for a monk, but not so much for a windsurfer on a windy lunch break.

NOTHING knocked it of its intended course. Point it towards a mark and neither nature nor rider input could deflect it any time soon.

Given a few too many seconds in the water after a fall, it was almost impossible to clear the sail for a waterstart before everyone else had finished the race, packed up, and gone home. That giant luff sleeve held scores, maybe hundreds, of pounds of water once flooded.

Someone said this version costs $1,200. That's dirt cheap* considering that (1) this version consists of two complete sails plus a complicated bladder/batten structure and (2) one such sail is a full quiver for most sailors and venues. I need to rig a whole 6-sail quiver of normal sails to enjoy only part of that wind range, and then slog across the wind shadow -- twice -- every time I choose to plug in a different sail. Then I gotta de-rig and stow all that $#!+ when it's time to go home.

* Lessee ... For 14 to 42 kts average wind speed in plug'nplay mode, I'd want about 8 complete rigs at $2,000 a pop. I don't need a calculator to figure out the cost advantage of this monster, nor a clock to figure out its rigging time and wind shadow crossing advantage.

If this thing would only maneuver like a wave sail, I'd be all over it at twice the price.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 144

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes it sounds crazy - same sail from 14 to 42 knots. My first reaction was the one of Anton Chekhov's character: it is impossible because it is never may be possible.

and his website is bad, although it does a very good job to obscure the main idea behind his design.
But I googled a bit more, and found couple of his videos and his FB page (and there are the videos him sailing, and his loft, and his machinery, etc.)

And we have to give him a credit, for the idea and for how far he had advanced it.

His main idea (totally hidden from his website) is that this is a double skin wing, totally symmetrical. The surface on the left and the surface on the right with double set of battens. If you make a horizontal cross section at any height it will be an ideal totally symmetrical tear drop shape.

His idea is that this is a solid wing, as solid as could be. Obviously it has some play and it is not clear how much the shape of left side is different from the shape of the right side when you fill it with wind. Obviously it is not totally symmetrical anymore, but if I understand correctly, it is still solid.

If this is true then increasing speed of the airflow 3x times should increase lift 9x times, but this probably can be compensated by luffing the sail (i.e. decreasing this angle of attack, or mathematically speaking decreasing sin(alpha)). However luffing can be done with any sail, and with any conventional single skin sail it is not enough with those drastic air flow changes - the shape will be distorted, the center of lift will move, the pressure on left and right hands starts to wander...

But, and again I hope I understand this correctly, with a solid rigid wing design when the sail shape doesn't change with the gust the center of effort stays in the same spot, it is just that it pulls stronger - and this alone can be compensated by luffing. Like an aircraft wing has the same center of effort no matter whats its speed. And from what I understand this is the main point of his design.

I still have problem believing that 5.8 can be sailed on a single 70 liter board in 14 knots. I'll take Fanatic Ray 145 and 8.5 and I'd need to pump it on the plane in this wind.

Obviously the weight of the sail is double.

And as noticed the rigging is outright insane, I personally prefer to rig three nocam sails instead of this one, and I think I'll be faster.

As mentioned durability is a big Q

And I add the waterstarting - this cavity between skins will act like a huge mast sleeve full with water?

For a single man effort I think he is one of a heroes that move progress forward. But the drawbacks are very obvious

I would gladly try it for free and will write a review - just a great idea and a great effort behind it; but as is I am skeptical...

I would also think that this is a great idea for catamarans
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2244
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Wing sail is reality now Reply with quote

PM me and send me one to demo. I'll even endure the rigging.
I regularly see winds from 15 to 40 MPH (sometimes in the same 30
seconds), so this is the perfect sail. 12 Bills is cheap for a single sail
quiver. Like I said, send me one!

-Craig

killogramm wrote:
Sailing my wing for 5 years now during R&D . Sail with proper aerodynamics is really ultimate. It's a bit heavier than your race sail, but much easier to drive due hi stability and fixed center of lift. Crash resistant, fast and very forgiving.
Wind range for 5.8 14kt to 42kt , actually I don't know upper limit, probably it depend on sailor weight. It just ,any conditions I take my sail , it delivers same performance, doesn't matter how hard the wind blows. Check out MWsails.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4494
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shortboarding since '83, and working at windsurf shops for 21 years, I've known several guys who used a 5.7 sail for all winds from 15 to 40 mph... Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19175

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could do that, too.

I could also eat light bulbs, jump off a roof onto an upturned rebar, or, worse yet, sail (slog) a 5.7 in 14 kts of wind. I would do none of them intentionally.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9428

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say that the MWsails.com website only offers me a blank screen, but that might be problems with my computer. That aside (with the help of other's research), I find the overall design is novel, and performance-wise, it might offer decided advantages. Only time will tell where the ideas catch on in the marketplace.

Yet, the testy issues that come to mind are rigging in less than optimal conditions. In any strong blowing dirt and sand environment, the rigging process could bedevil all your best efforts, particularly taking it apart wet without ending up with a bit of disaster. Needless to say, everything must be totally clean the next time you rig.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
That's odd ... you don't LOOK like you weigh 500 pounds. Very Happy

42 kts?
For proper aerodynamics 42 kt is not much wind at all. Look at the sky there is planes flying 500mph. I've been on 42kt wind 55F , no problem with sail , but water spray in my face was really annoying.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alap wrote:
yes it sounds crazy - same sail from 14 to 42 knots. My first reaction was the one of Anton Chekhov's character: it is impossible because it is never may be possible.

and his website is bad, although it does a very good job to obscure the main idea behind his design.
But I googled a bit more, and found couple of his videos and his FB page (and there are the videos him sailing, and his loft, and his machinery, etc.)

And we have to give him a credit, for the idea and for how far he had advanced it.

His main idea (totally hidden from his website) is that this is a double skin wing, totally symmetrical. The surface on the left and the surface on the right with double set of battens. If you make a horizontal cross section at any height it will be an ideal totally symmetrical tear drop shape.

His idea is that this is a solid wing, as solid as could be. Obviously it has some play and it is not clear how much the shape of left side is different from the shape of the right side when you fill it with wind. Obviously it is not totally symmetrical anymore, but if I understand correctly, it is still solid.

If this is true then increasing speed of the airflow 3x times should increase lift 9x times, but this probably can be compensated by luffing the sail (i.e. decreasing this angle of attack, or mathematically speaking decreasing sin(alpha)). However luffing can be done with any sail, and with any conventional single skin sail it is not enough with those drastic air flow changes - the shape will be distorted, the center of lift will move, the pressure on left and right hands starts to wander...

But, and again I hope I understand this correctly, with a solid rigid wing design when the sail shape doesn't change with the gust the center of effort stays in the same spot, it is just that it pulls stronger - and this alone can be compensated by luffing. Like an aircraft wing has the same center of effort no matter whats its speed. And from what I understand this is the main point of his design.

I still have problem believing that 5.8 can be sailed on a single 70 liter board in 14 knots. I'll take Fanatic Ray 145 and 8.5 and I'd need to pump it on the plane in this wind.

Obviously the weight of the sail is double.

And as noticed the rigging is outright insane, I personally prefer to rig three nocam sails instead of this one, and I think I'll be faster.

As mentioned durability is a big Q

And I add the waterstarting - this cavity between skins will act like a huge mast sleeve full with water?

For a single man effort I think he is one of a heroes that move progress forward. But the drawbacks are very obvious

I would gladly try it for free and will write a review - just a great idea and a great effort behind it; but as is I am skeptical...

I would also think that this is a great idea for catamarans
Ok , sail is totally asymmetrical, one side is flat and another side curved. I know it is hard to imagine but what can I say. I sail NJ seaside park flats, ask people around , on facebook, Many of them have see my sail development for 5 yeas. Also there is pictures and videos. On I will post a picture here , just to ad cherry on the top.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
Shortboarding since '83, and working at windsurf shops for 21 years, I've known several guys who used a 5.7 sail for all winds from 15 to 40 mph... Very Happy
Yes there are some guys, but Im talking about average windsurfer 175 pounds taking easily on the plane at 14 kt and stay trouble free through the whole wind range.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 23, 24, 25  Next
Page 2 of 25

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum

myiW | Weather | Community | Membership | Support | Log in
like us on facebook
© Copyright 1999-2007 WeatherFlow, Inc Contact Us Ad Marketplace

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group