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My experience with a Bic/Ker foil (big buy )
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1210

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2U2U2 wrote:
dllee wrote:
There's a reason big guys ... just about anything do to with performance.
In windsurfing, Antoine is around 235, as was Bjorn in his prime, all the speed sailors, and some of the old World Cup racer's.


Just noticed the "all the speed sailors" claim, which is incorrect. Even the weight for Antoine Albeau is overstated by 20 pounds.

The #2 ranked speed sailor is Gunnar Asmussen. He's about the same height as Albeau (186 cm) and weighs in at 93 kg (205 lb).

Current #3 is Patrik Diethelm. He's a bit shorter at 6 ft and weighs in at 200 lb. I've seen him at some races in Western Australia, and he actually looks a bit shorter and lighter than that.

The #1 speedsurfer in the GPS Team Challenge rankings is Jacques Van der Hout. He's taller (191 cm, 6 ft 3) and weight in at 95 kg (210 lb).

The guy who leads the Australian rankings, Sailquik, is perhaps 5 ft 10 and at most 180 lb - probably a bit shorter and lighter.

One of the fastest speed sailors outside of the Luderitz speed channel is Steve Thorpe, who is 5 ft 10 and weighs in at 76 kg (170 lb). His top 2 second speed at West Kirby was 50.48 knots. That gives him "only" the #30 spot in the 2 second ranking on GPS-speedsurfing.com, but 28 of the 29 guys ahead of him got their top speed on the channel in Luderitz.

There certainly are plenty of tall and big speed sailors, but there are also plenty of lighter guys who are extremely fast.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4593
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're joking, right?
Been watching, in person, Brad at Helvitia, Sacto Raceway, Hangtown, Argyl Park and later TransAms since 1969. He didn't usually start well at 180lbs or so, but lots of Experts were that and over who avoided 125's.
Never met Broc, but Marty Tripes was pushing 215 and did well on a 250 mostly.
My old roomate got down to 260lbs. to race the Honda 500 MX.
Local practice buds DuaneJ, JimF. And KennyR were weight lifters who flirted with 200 lbs and were Expert Pros. JohnnyH from the E side of SF was 185 lbs. All SF guys
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4593
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for Speedsailing.... i competed in the US SS Association Trials events on the West Coast and Texas for 7 events that actually HAD wind and 4 more that were windless.
My buds were mostly 235lbs and over, including a 275 lbs.'er who beat Roddy Lewis, Fred Haywood, and one other NP rider at the Ponds, but was not allowed into the following weeks "official" Ponds results due to political reasons.
Local, SF area riders Boggy, 235lbs, Yogi, 195lbs, and FerrisH,235lbs, were the guys I travelled with.
FatDave drove with his non windsurfing buy beer drinking buds.
Fasteat sub 175lbs was Glen McKinley.
I never came in top 10 of the unlimited weight class at 148lbs mostly, but never came in below midpack.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4593
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Currently, you would be very hardpressed to find a fast windsurfer under 200lbs.
There are some, and even at 155lbs., Chenda in Berkeley, Avery up N, but very rare compared to all those big boyz who buy the latest slalom boards and full cambered wide sleeve sails.
Even in the Delta, big guys go the fastest most often. While JasonV is sorta fast when using correct speed gear, the 220+ guys are consistently faster.
And most of those fast guys know me, even though I sail Sherman less than once every 3 years since the early 90's.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5065
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dllee wrote:
There's a reason big guys don't race motocross, road races, cars, or just about anything do to with performance.
In windsurfing, Antoine is around 235, as was Bjorn in his prime, all the speed sailors, and some of the old World Cup racer's.
And they broke gear like there is no tomorrow.
If everyone made gear catered to the big boys, the prices would go sky high...more than now.
And most breakages are accredited to what is known as an ACCIDENT. Which is not normal use, sailing around at 22 mph and not falling catastrophically.


You did write this, the first line says big guys DONT.
THEN go on about big guys in motocross.
You need a tune up.

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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4593
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please don't be petty.
You guys are always looking for exceptions, so I listed a few to help you along.
I listed FatDave at 275 lbs.
I sailed with Andrea, at 91lbs.
But what's the average?
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1210

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you've simply got it backwards. Big guys need big sails. For any kind of performance, that means cambered sails. Most big boards are oriented towards beginners and lighter wind - so the logical steps is to end up of full slalom gear. You see lots of big guys on slalom gear because that's the only thing that really works for them. Sail it a lot, and you'll get decent on it. Many of the big windsurfers who did not want to go the slalom route ended up kiting, where weight matters less.

Similarly, you won't find many big freestylers. The only big amateur freestyler I know (~ 6 ft 3, 225 lb) had his board custom-built since a size for his weight is not available.

From what I have seen on the water and at events like last year's US Nationals and the OBX long distance and slalom races, the slalom "scene" in the US is very small. Of the ~200 windsurfers at OBX, maybe a dozen or two are on slalom gear and know how to use it. Even of those, many have just one or two slalom boards and sails.

In Australia, the slalom and speedsurfing scene is a lot bigger. At one slalom race we went to, there were 100 windsurfers on the starting line - about 90% of them on slalom gear, with a full trailer or van of slalom gear on the beach. The vast majority of sailors where about my size (6 ft, 195 lb) or shorter and lighter. That includes the winner (Patrik Diethelm). PD placed 2nd at the Lancelin Ocean Classic with about 200 windsurfers, which was won by PWA slalom champion Matteo Iachino (200 lb according to this article, and that's what he looked like).

The same thing is true for Australian speedsurfers. There are at least 20x as many active speedsurfers in Oz, partly because they have such fantastic speedsurfing venues. During our 2 1/2 months there, we sailed with about 100 of them. A couple of guys stood out for being tall and/or big and fast, but the average was regular size (~ 6 ft, 200 lb or less). That also applies to the fastest speedsurfer in Oz, Slowboat.

You don't have to go to Oz, though - just look at the winners of the OBX-Wind 2019 race: 1. Aron Etmon (181 cm); 2. Keith McCulloch; 4. Phil Soltysiak. All of them are below or near 200 lb.

There's lots of examples of fast windsurfers who are under 200 lb. Maybe sailing Fat Dave has skewed your view.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
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Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP weighs 215, this is more than the average USA male at 197.
If a board weighted 18 pounds more than average , some would notice.

Posting trivial crap is ok, so long as itís not petty. Not Richard Petty either.

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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not think you have to be big to be fast, but logic tells me that being big is an advantage to being fast in windsurfing. A couple of observations that might make it so.

1. Bigger people are less affected by chop. Other than on special speed courses, the windier it gets the choppier it gets.

2. When doing speed runs, many of the pros wear weighted vests. Why do they need the added weight?

3. A freighter takes more energy to get going than a speed boat, but when the motor is turned off the freighter will carry speed much further than the speed boat. A lighter sailor will slow down faster than a heavier sailor.

Obviously size is not the key component to being fast in sailing, but I'm pretty sure that if I raced a version of myself that was 30 lbs. heavier I would lose in a slalom race but I would smoke him in freestyle of waves.

Coachg
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1210

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
1. Bigger people are less affected by chop.

How so? I actually doubt this is true. Perhaps if a bigger guys uses the same board as a smaller guy, the board will stick to the water better. But if board size matches weight, I don't see that chop would affect them differently. Also applies to the 3rd point.

coachg wrote:
2. When doing speed runs, many of the pros wear weighted vests. Why do they need the added weight?

According to Patrik Diethelm, who tends to carry more weight than anyone else, it's to reduce rig movements. The other issue is leverage - weight at chest level has a lot of leverage over the sail, weight below the waist has almost none.

Looking at the physics, I can see how height affects speed potential - for example by allowing for cleaner air flow because the body is away from the sail. I don't think the arguments for weight, however, are valid; most of the time, they assume similar gear size for different weights, which is nonsense. But the role of height can't be that big, considering examples like Whitey, who held the production board speed record for a number of years, or Ben Proffitt, who broke 50 knots at Luderitz within a couple of days. Both guys are a few inches shorter than 6 feet.

For current speed sailing, there are two factors that favor heavier guys: familiarity and gear availability. Heavier guys need more wind to get going, so their sailable window is shifted towards higher winds. The more you sail in a given set of conditions, the better you'll sail.

But gear availability is probably the bigger issue. For top speeds, you need extreme winds (40 knots+), which makes even heavy guys go down to 5.0 and 5.6 m sails. Most brands don't even offer smaller speed sails, so a "light weight" of 140 lb like my wife will have to use a sail that's too big for the conditions. The same for boards - the smallest speed board we have, at 62 liters, still floats her. No surprise that she set her top speed on a 39 cm custom speed board (built by a guy who's also about 140 lb, and a few knots faster than I am at 195).

For many years, one of our light weight local windsurfers seemed to be very slow, despite good technique and being able to handle (relatively) large sails. She probably weighs in at about half of what the heavier guys weigh. Easy enough to conclude it's her weight that's to blame. But ever since she switched to some newer gear, including a Fanatic Blast 100, she's at least as fast as most guys on the water, even when the guys are nicely powered on reasonably-sized sails.
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