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mat-ty
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7850
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 Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Swchandler
Go to the post you want to respond to, hit quote in the upper right hand corner, new screen will have posters content with the word quote in the lower left in brackets, now make sure you put cursor to the right and then below a few spaces of quote in bracket, proceed to write your response and then hit preview/submit...
hope this helps |
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nw30
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| swchandler wrote: | "Something tells me that mac and swc would have similar views about Europe back in the late 30's - early 40's. And of course they'd have their heroes to point to, like Charles Lindbergh or Joe Kennedy Sr."
NW30 gets foolish in his thoughts about another time, and how some of us would fit into it? Clearly you're drifting on nonsense. Yet, I have to ask, how do you fit into your goofy illusion? |
History is not a goofy illusion, study it sometime and you'll be able to see some very compelling parallels.
I guess all the innocent deaths over just this last month doesn't effect you in a way to where you would like to see something done to eliminate this global threat. Back in the late 30's - early 40's we had the "illusion" of the oceans to keep us safe, that obviously no longer exists.
So you can sit on your Code Pink platform and watch others try and save your ass, if it makes you feel any better, you're obviously not into it.
You won't find me anywhere near that mindset.
One more thing, this is not a religious war as you try to claim, it's a war against terrorism born out of a hijacked religion. Your attempt at trying to label this as something that goes back eons, misrepresents what is actually happening, it is a failure on your part. Take off your liberal blinders and look around if you have the guts, but I know you don't. |
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swchandler
Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| NW30, believe me, I appreciate actual history, but lamely inserting mac and me into your goofy interpretation of it is foolish. What makes you think that your anti-liberal rant makes any sense at all? Just manufactured BS in my view. |
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nw30
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Trust me, I know that. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17750
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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My goodness, NW said something I can partly agree with--before the insults and the made up positions:
| Quote: | | One more thing, this is not a religious war as you try to claim, it's a war against terrorism born out of a hijacked religion. |
Kind of yes and kind of no. There are multiple different fault lines in the unrest that has spread across the Middle East and Southern Asia. The underlying cause of terrorism is mostly as NW says, a hijacked religion being used to battle for political and economic power. While it is the export of terrorism--common in these battlegrounds--to the west that concerns folks like NW, the tensions between Sunni and Shia have been going on for centuries. Deposing Saddam upset the apple cart and revved that conflict up to white hot heat. Christian religious communities, as well as Shia and Sunni, have been attacked and ethnic cleansing has spread across much of the territory--generating millions of refugees. So whether the root causes are religious, the conflicts have played out in many cases tribally, where religion is part of the tribal identity. As I see it, there are the following underlying tensions, not in any particular order of priority:
1. Decades of war in Afghanistan have wiped out economic activity--except in the heroin trade--and empowered militia leaders, many of which were active in resisting first the Russians and then the US. Resentment of corruption has de-legitimized the "built nation" that the US stood up after the invasion. The power vacuum created by the limited scope of the formal government has resulted in many of the militias becoming criminal gangs, heavily involved in the drug trade and extortion, with ties to drug smuggling and ethnic relationships in the wild lands of Pakistan. Pakistan has exploited the power vacuum to retain hegemony in this portion of Asia. Corruption and governmental abuse are powerful factors which provide some attraction, or at least a cover story, for neo-Puritanical groups like the Taliban. We are ignoring history if we don't realize that the US de-legitimized its potential role as peacemaker or nation builder in ignoring the rampant corruption that followed the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.
2. The fall of Iraq, and the disbanding of the Iraq military (de-Baathification) dramatically changed the power balance in the Middle East, and created new geographical areas, and fault lines, for Iran and Saudi Arabia to heat up their struggle for hegemony. This has played out in proxy wars in Syria, Yemen, and Iraq. Former Iraqi military officers provided part of the personnel for ISIS, but that has been augmented by new training and recruiting efforts. To a remarkable degree, ignored by many on the right, the terrorists within this series of proxy wars are criminal gangs, devoted to extortion and theft of resources like oil and cultural artifacts and carrying out the drug trade. You can see this in many of the ties to those who have sponsored attacks in France; many are career criminals. Hardly the fodder for devout religious reformers.
3. All across this swath of the world, strong governments are mostly autocratic and corrupt, de-legitimizing the idea of government. Yet the weak governments that have arisen after revolts--Libya, Somalia, Sudan--have been too weak to handle the criminal gangs that proclaim themselves as jihadists, but are really devoted to theft.
4. Israel remains resented, for both good and bad reasons, even though they have fallen from the top of the list of Arab world enemies. The anti-democratic agenda of the right in Israel provides a steady diet of grievances to stir up ethnic/religious hatred.
In this context, it is not clear to me whether Obama's approach of targeted killings has been a complete failure, a partial success, or is contributing to the roll-back of ISIS. Certainly on the ground ISIS is weaker than it was when it swept across large parts of Iraq and Syria. Assad, a far more despicable man than Saddam, has nearly regained control of Syria. But the response to this diminished power base has been an increase in terrorist attacks.
It is important to distinguish between the organized terrorist activities sponsored by jihadis including ISIS, and the lone-wolf attacks of the shooter in Orlando and (apparently) the truck driver in Nice. It is also important to remember the role of mental illness--where grievances, legitimate or not, so obsess people that they resort to violence.
I would welcome, but am not optimistic about reading, credible suggestions for what should be done differently.
If you are interested in the role that corruption has played in the unraveling of the world order, try "Thieves of State" by Sarah Chayes. She served in various roles in Afghanistan for ten years. |
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mat-ty
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7850
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| We let a million in, fair to say 1% could be radical?, that's 10,000 new killers amongst us. Scary!!! |
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real-human
Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14892
Location: on earth
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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no different that stopping radical right wingers, like the KKK, Militia hero McVeigh, Ted Bundys of the right wing,House speaker Hastert. the recent tea party head who ran for office in AZ convicted of pediophile, church shooters, doctor shooters, branch davidian Koresh, the cliven bundy's, and so on.
The problem is the political correctness of going after right wingers, they all claim the media and government are out to get them.
_________________
when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard. |
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