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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:34 am Post subject: |
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I had a test more days than not just in seventh grade geography alone. Burned a lot of (post) midnight oil, learned a lot of geography, and developed good study habits that help me even today, 60 years later. Thank you, Miriam Kennedy.
But I wonder if that contributed to my sometimes devastating clinical insomnia that greatly impairs my study today. If so, curse you, Miriam Kennedy.
Growing kids need much more sleep than grown-ups. If excessive schoolwork impairs that, the harm may outweigh the benefit. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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mr sarcastic now claims to have started a constructive discussion. His bias shows with this comment:
| Quote: | | Could it be that teachers dislike testing because they know it is an attempt to objectively assess their performance? |
Those who went to work in well paying fields will never understand the motivation of teachers, who go to work knowing that it will take two incomes to scrape along. We could do a side-by-side comparison of pay scales in Virginia , comparing those of self-important oilies and teachers, but I think most people understand the point.
The problem is not assessing performance, the problem is objectivity and statistically valid rigor. Over the past ten years, I have spent at least 100 times as much time observing the teachers that I work with as has the principal. I have seen teachers that I thought were poorly organized consistently turn out kids that read above their grade level. And I have observed teachers that were well intentioned, and well organized not teach particularly well because they could not control the classroom.
There are two myths behind the right wing bromides that mrgybe subscribes to. The first is that somehow pay-for-performance can be implemented in public schools and will improve teaching, and second, that market alternatives like charter schools will provide parents with choices and the market will magically upgrade all schools. Both are thoroughly debunked in Diane Ravitch's work, particularly her seminal book "The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education." To summarize the research, which mrgybe has not shown he has familiarized himself with. First, regarding choice, parents, even those in districts that have poor schools, vastly prefer neighborhood schools and communities. Poorer students, particularly those of color, are dramatically less likely to avail themselves of charter schools than more well-to-do parents. So choice has had the effect, whether intended or not, of increasing segregation in our schools. Second, there are a host of problems with implementing the supposed "objective assessment" of mrgybe's fantasy world. I'll give you just a few that illustrate the point that a single annual test is not sufficiently robust to fairly assess teaching. First, some students who know that a test doesn't affect their grades or their passing on to the next grade bomb the test. Second, the ability of a teacher in a classroom depends on how many disruptive kids they are assigned. One year I was in a first grade class as a volunteer with 6 disruptive kids among 20. One aid. The average kids in that classroom were set off every day by the disruptive kids until the number of kids that needed special attention was down to 3 or 4, and the teacher, with help from me and the aid, could get the kids focused. No system of evaluation will be fair unless it factors in somehow the level of disruption in the students assigned, and the readiness, mentally and emotionally, of the kids to learn.
Despite their ability to screen out many of the disruptive students, charter schools generally don't do a better job of educating kids--measured by standardized tests--than public schools. Clearly they are not a solution, despite the claims of the Ayn Rand devotees out there.
Now I don't agree with Obama or Arne or Bush on the role of the Federal government, or whatever new changes mrgybe gleefully scorns. I think there is a role of the Federal government in funding, and evaluating, innovative programs that may work better. I also think that there is an appropriate role for the Federal government in helping establish ideal curricula that will make American schools more competitive with those in countries like Finland. I also think that there is an appropriate Federal role in comparing the rigor of curricula in the various states. But setting standards, as opposed to guidelines, or choosing for local school districts, is a role I think is mistaken. I would, to be sure, welcome thoughtful suggestions as opposed to right wing talking points. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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A predictably sneering response. Anyone who dismisses the notion that teachers unions object to the standardized testing introduced by the Obama Administration in part because of the direct linkage to teacher evaluations, is simply not paying attention in class. Perhaps we should have a test to wake them up. This from Diana Ravich's blog.....
"But it is precisely the federal government’s insistence on requiring testing regimes that facilitate teacher and leader evaluations that include student growth metrics that caused all this over-testing in the first place.
Outstanding principals I’ve talked with tell me that when tough-minded, test-based accountability came into vogue, they created or found good interventions that came with their own assessments, each keyed to the intervention they were using. They had always done that. But their district superintendents, also fearful for their jobs under the new regime, mandated other interventions, with their own tests. Then the state piled on with their own mandated programs and tests, all driven by the fear of leaders, at each level, that if student performance did not improve at the required rate, their own jobs were on the line." |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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A predictable, sneering, and tone deaf response. The inability to comprehend is at the root of the death of critical thinking:
| Quote: | | A predictably sneering response. Anyone who dismisses the notion that teachers unions object to the standardized testing introduced by the Obama Administration in part because of the direct linkage to teacher evaluations, is simply not paying attention in class. |
Of course, I did not dismiss the notion that teacher's unions object. I instead wrote about the challenges of making an evaluation fair and objective, putatively mrgybe's goal. Having done employee evaluations for decades, and having observed teachers, principals, and master teachers at work, I support much more rigorous teacher evaluation, and longer periods of time before they are accorded tenure. The idea that those can be fairly derived primarily from a single test at the end of the year--one that is evolving and chaotic as we speak--is an ill-informed fantasy. Mrgybe's stock in trade--simplistic answers for complex problems.
I will again challenge mrgybe to read the whole book, not cherrypick a comment out of context--and establish what he thinks the appropriate role of the Federal government should be. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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He can't help himself can he? He dismisses my legitimate comment as sarcastic bias..........and then says he didn't........with an extra helping of sneering and fabrications.
| mac wrote: | mr sarcastic now claims to have started a constructive discussion. His bias shows with this comment:
| Quote: | | Could it be that teachers dislike testing because they know it is an attempt to objectively assess their performance? |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Name a fabrication, serial spinner. You invented a position for me--and ignored the problems I identified. Your definition of constructive dialogue? Fire the liberal professors? Brainwash your kids at UVA?
sneering gets sneering in return. Get used to it or stop. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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How about this one?
| mac wrote: | | The idea that those (evaluations) can be fairly derived primarily from a single test at the end of the year--one that is evolving and chaotic as we speak--is an ill-informed fantasy. Mrgybe's stock in trade--simplistic answers for complex problems. |
If that is not a fabrication, please quote me suggesting that teacher evaluation can be derived primarily from a single test at the end of the year. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Mrgybe--your hostility to unions, and your steady drumbeat of support for testing and teacher evaluation has been made clear over the years. It is reasonable for those of us who support quality teaching to suspect that your motives are more union busting and elimination of due process and tenure which protect teachers from arbitrary firing. Many on the right have favored replacing experienced teachers with young, in-experienced teachers--who happen to be cheaper and usually less effective.
Now you want to cherry pick Diane Ravitch--without acknowledging her fundamental message that there are over 3 million public school teachers in the United States, and we are not going to fire our way to any substantial improvement in education.
So I challenge you to lay out your program ideas for how we improve that 3 million corps of teachers. Be clear how you think that evaluation by principals, consideration of testing scores and experience should be taken into account. Provide your recommendations for coaching, counseling, and progressive discipline that does not allow school boards to arbitrarily fire unpopular or controversial teachers. Indicate what role you think the Federal government should have in any necessary reforms. Keep in mind that there is no consistent testing program nationwide, so include recommendations for standardizing evaluations from state to state. Keeping in mind that Common Core has only been implemented in most states for less than three years, that computer testing was introduced just last year in some states, and that two data points--or even three--do not demonstrate a trend, indicate what would be sufficient data to be able to evaluate teachers.
Remember to be specific--your grade for the semester is riding on this test. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| No surprises. When challenged to be constructive, mrgybe is at a loss for words. |
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