WindSUP Sails

[gregnw44]

Wow, yeah nice email from the NP guy.
It's cool, cause I said most of what he said, in my "BTW section" 2 posts ago.
Next, the only part I'd question is where he says this Garda sails were made '91 - '94 (with all due respect to "Swch" who agrees with this).
I still think the Garda was a mid to late 80's sail.
I have a large framed photo taken of me in Hawaii in 1988, sailing a shortboard with a NP 4.7 RAF Wave (that's the model name printed on the sail).
And the sail in my photo looks exactly like the Garda in your photo. Same colors, same panel lay-out, same font and style, for graphics... same foot batten at the big angle compared to the rest the battens.
I think the Garda was made the same time as the Wave... and
Greg -

Of course, none of this matters... who cares what year (exactly) these sails were made.
Greg

[ittiandro]

[GURGLETROUSERS]

ittiandro. If it measures 195 boom length, it will be better as a longboard sail. There may be some confusion because the exact year of your sail seems to be in doubt, and they made the same named sail in different sizes. I expect you were quoted from memory, with the length quoted of a smaller sized sail.

Incidentally, stated sizes of sails, especially older ones, so9metimes need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Some makers deliberately understated the sails size in order to come out better (speed and power) in magazine tests.

I had a Tushingham 4.3 slalom sail and a friend had a Neil Pryde 5.4 sail. We looked at each others, and scratched our heads. On laying my 4.3 on top of his 5.4, it was a bit BIGGER!!

Anyway, the 195 boom length should suit your board well. It's neither too long, nor too short.

Have fun.

[ittiandro]

[joethewindsufa]

if you are daring, you can try it on my "new" ArcticSail board

http://joewindsurfer.blogspot.ca/2015/10/arcticsail-for-windsurfing-on-ice-and.html

NO swimming required, but more clothing suggested

[ittiandro]

Hi
I am back now from the long winter… hibernation and I have finally been able to test the N.P. Garda N.P. 6.2 of which I had posted pics in connection with our discussion. I have also purchased a brand new Bic WindSup 11’6”. As promised I’d like to report the results of my first two outings of the season, regarding both the WindSup and the Garda sail .

As many Forum members probably remember, the focus of my exchanges and the sometimes hot debates which ensued , here as elsewhere, was my dissatisfaction with windsurfing equipment designed exclusively for planing, which sadly means ALL the equipment on the market today,( even though traditional longboards or their equivalents are now coming back and there is reason for hope) .

It has always been my contention, shared by most people, that the “ planing bias “ in the design of both sails and boards severely limits the sub-planing capability, especially in regions like here , where planing conditions are not frequent in summer and this means a drastic reduction in the T.O.W.

I have also, perhaps too creatively and against conventional wisdom, advocated that in light-wind conditions the somewhat crippling effect of the planing bias of the sails can be removed for optimized sub-planing by shortening the battens to about 6” from the luff, to keep the DH to a minimum ( and the leech tighter). I have done it and the results seem to vindicate the soundness of the idea.

Let me start first with the Garda 6.2.
I originally believed that that this sail was designed by N.P. for longboard sub-planing, but Neil Pryde representatives told me that this sail was designed for shortboard planing, even though they said it can be used also for sub-planing on longboards.
I reported their answer in this thread. Anyway, I tested it a few days ago on the Bic WinSup and the results are very encouraging.

This sail is superb: very light ( Dacron) . I used it in 10-12 knts winds where previously not even a 8.5 got me moving on my Bic 293 Core, which is as close as you can get to a longboard in terms of length, , but still too short for sub-planing.

The Garda sail, made of Dacron, is astonishingly ( and very pleasantly) light and efficient, with a deep shape within a nervature of battens.
At first it looked baggy, with creases, as if the fabric was stretched and/or spent. I couldn’t fix it even by increasing the outhaul.

Today I deployed it in my yard and I found that the problem was not enough D/H and the wrong M.F. extension. I fixed it by increasing the D/H and giving more extension to the M.F. The bagginess and the creases have disappeared, the sail is taut, while still keeping its deep shape for power in light winds.

I’m sure next time it will perform even better and in a wider wind-range, because I can now fully control the shape with the outhaul, to flatten it out in stronger winds.

Anyway, even with the maladjustment , the sail got me moving immediately at a brisk pace, whereas most of the windsurfers where sitting on the beach and the rare few on the water struggled hard, even with large, fully battened, mirror- flat sails. …(But the top twisted nicely, though…) . Exactly like me in the past.

I also tried to see if in those light winds I could use my Sailworks Race 5.6, which, as mentioned earlier in this thread, I had modified by removing the sticky cams and shortening the battens to about 6” from the luff in order to keep the d/haul to a minimum for a tight leech, while still having the sail rotate properly, which was hitherto impossible. In other words, I removed the planing bias.

Before the modifications, I have never been able to use a 5.6 m2 in 10-12 knts winds. Surprisingly for some,( but not for me) the sail was now able to get me moving, albeit more slowly than the old 6.2 Garda.

As far as the WindSup is concerned, it is, expectedly, very stable. Finally, I can tack and gibe on it without falling. Almost like..solid ground. It also points well upwind, even without pushing down the centerboard, just by banking on the rail. .

I must say though, that, with or without the centerboard, the board , overall, is not very aggressive upwind. It slowly inches its way through, to be sure, without drifting, but the angle to the wind has to be kept very wide and sometimes you have to give it momentum by speeding up a bit down wind and then re-point it upwind .
I suspect it is because the wind was too light to allow a stronger lateral resistance, due to the slow speed ( here Isaac Newton might have something to say..).

I am eager to see if it performs better upwind with stronger winds.

There might be other reasons, too:
1. The rear fin is very short and, even with a fully extended centerboard, it may not generate enough lateral resistance or lift in light winds. Actually, I seem to recall that my previous Bic 293 , which had a much longer rear fin, pointed upwind more aggressively, at least those rare days where the winds where strong enough..
2. The position of the rear fin and of the mast on the track(s): the rear fin is adjustable and I positioned it maximum forward, because somebody suggested the board is more responsive this way. I also positioned the mast ¾ back with the idea of raising the nose a little bit, which should help it to rise over the wave instead of plunging in it. In the end, though, the board may have an inherent limit in its mast-track, which is much shorter than the other boards.

In fact, not being able to set the mast further back, makes it impossible to step further back on the board: there is a lot of room, but then the mast is too much forward to allow grabbing the wishbone comfortably, because you have to stretch your body and your arms a bit too much.

All in all, for windsurfing , I am very pleased with a WindSUP and , quality-wise, very satisfied with a Bic product.
Not for paddling, however! But this is not a quality problem with a particular manufacturer, Bic or other. It is the very design of the paddleboard itself.

As a paddleboard, it is utterly uncomfortable ( and somewhat tiring ,too), whether standing or kneeling.

I had a canoe for a long time: on it, you can paddle on the same side, because at the end of each stroke you correct the motion with a slight twist and this is sufficient to keep it tracking straight forward without changing sides.
The displacement-type of hull of a canoe is also much more resistant to lateral swerving than a flat-bottomed paddleboard.

With a paddleboard, at each stroke of the paddle, the board swerves instantly almost 45 degrees to one side and you have to keep changing side all the time to keep it on course. You cannot correct the course with the canoe-twist because the board is too jerky and overreacts to each stroke or movement of the paddle.
Perhaps a kayak-type of paddle or a canoe-paddle with a much narrower blade would be better.
Anyway, I had enough after 100 yards and went back to windsurfing. A real joy!

Bottom line, in spite of the marketing spin of manufacturers, which advertise the paddleboards, basically, as an alternative to other small pleasure crafts like canoes or kayaks, they are not ( and cannot be) the same. Their design does not fill the same function.

In a nutshell, while paddleboards are unquestionably good for fun around the beach, for families or kids, in addition to having the advantage of being easy to carry around because of their light weight ( especially the inflatable ones, which are wonderful) , they cannot be compared to a canoe or a kayak in terms of efficiency, comfort and effort over longer distances.

If I had bought a paddleboard to paddle on it for longer than half an hour or more than a few hundred yards around the beach, I’d be swearing, especially if I had to contend with waves and currents, however small.

Fortunately I’ll only windsurf on it and leave to others the joy of paddling..
For this, I’d still buy a kayak ( or a canoe) and you can find kayaks for a lot cheaper than paddleboards.

All this in I.M.H.O and subject to debate.

Any comment will be appreciated


Ittiandro

[GURGLETROUSERS]

Good write up Ittiandro.

Absolutely agree about kayaks. Have been a rabid kayaker since the 1960's using all kinds, from 19 foot 'eskimo' camping cruiser to custom sufers. Kayaks are THE most fun and efficient man propelled sea craft ever invented. (Not to mention river and waterfall usage.)

Good to hear you like the altered sub-planing sails, and the Bic S.U.P. Bics are often underated, but they have brought out some classic designs over the years, and they last well.

It's a pity that you are dogged by predominantly light winds. Modern planing medium volume boards and modern planing sails and masts are as good as it's ever likely to get. The emphasis may change regularly (wider, thinner, whatever) with each new claimed breakthrough, but what goes around comes around, and older shapes still work.

P.S. In the early 80's I used to use a lengthened standard two bladed kayak paddle on the old longboards when the wind deserted us. It was much better than a lopsisded single blade paddle, even though those boards were NOT optimised for surfing. But it was a good laugh!

Have (more) fun!

[boardsurfr]

To point better upwind on the BIC, move the mast track forward, and the fin back. You'll be able to eek out a few degrees more. You will not be able to point nearly as high as on a traditional longboard like an Equipe, because the rails are rounded and the dagger board is smaller. But those boards are harder to tack, and much harder to jibe.

You can also play with tilting the board 15-30 degrees so the windward or leeward edge down. The windward edge makes a huge difference without a daggerboard, the leeward edge works for long boards with sharper rails. Since you have round rails and a dagger board, you need to try out which one will work better.

For paddling, make sure the daggerboard is up, and the fin all the way back. Keep the paddle really close to the board. You should be able to get at least 3-4 strokes without the board turning more than 30 degrees. It is possible to use paddle twist to reduce the turning even further, and paddle on one side for a long time with minimal direction changes. From what you describe, you probably had the center board down, which moves the "turning point" way too far to the front.

Even with better technique, it will be more tiring than kayaking - you're standing, can use more and bigger muscles, and the board is wider and does not have an optimized displacement hull like a kayak. Paddling is fine to check out cool places when there's no wind, and it's an excellent workout. I find it much more boring than sailing, though, but I think the same about running, treadmills, etc.

[VinceSF]

[Xxwindsurfer]

I also have a Bic Wind SUP 11' 6" which I have not yet actually Windsurfed but have used many times for paddle boarding with none of the difficulty you describe. There can be some rotation of the board with paddling but it is not excessive. I am about 190 lb and have had kids not much over 100 lb do fine with it. We do have the daggerboard cartridge right out of the board although I don't know if that matters. Have you tried moving forward or backward on the board? I paddle with my feet fairly wide apart for stability, not sure if that makes a difference. We have really enjoyed it as a paddle board. I plan to try it for light wind sailing this year and to try to teach my kids to windsurf.
I find the board is somewhat heavy but stable for paddling and that may be an advantage in our at times rough water.
Good luck.