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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 1120

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ittiandrobars?
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmf wrote:
Amazing....6 pages to justify a $50 sail......

KMF


Oops, another one reducing his intellectual horizon to money! Regardless of whether we are right or wrong on a given issue, the appropriateness ( or lack thereof) of raising it should not be judged on the monetary value of what we are discussing about, in this case the sail. Are you serious? The purpose of a Forum is to exchange ideas and disagreement is inevitable, even healthy. You seem to imply that before raising my point I should have asked myself ď Hmmm, letís see, the sail is only worth $ 50. Why should I waste their time and mine for $50 ?Ē I donít think that very many people would agree on this. In fact many participated in the discussion. This was a technical discussion and not a futile one just because of the value of the sail. Would my questioning have been more legitimate if the sail were worth $ 1000? I don't think so.
Money does not have and should not have anything to do with it..

Ittiandro
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
I hope that you checked the condition of the monofilm of the NP sail before spending your money. Once monofilm gets super chrispy, it starts to fail and the sail is over. However, maybe you've locked on to an old sail in great condition that was hardly used, and you'll be able get a lot of use out of it. Good luck.


Thanks for the hint. This is a Dacron sail. Very light and, for the use I'll make of it during our short summers, tough enough and well worth the $ 50 I paid. I don't think there is a monofilm. The only monofilm I saw was on a later Sailworks Race sail I bought 2nd hand . Here the monofilm is indeed cracking and peeling off in places . The N.P. Garda sail I just bought is older, probably 15 years older than the Sailworks Race, yet in much better condition. The Dacron may have its downside in the eyes of modern experts, but it is a lot lighter and just as sturdy as more recent sails, at least for casual, light duty usage. . I happened to have an Ezzy Freeride sometime ago. Excellent and well designed sail, but the fabric was so thick and so interwoven with reinforcing mesh that it looked like it was designed to resist abrasion with an orbital sander. Much heavier than Dacron. Sometimes I wonder if the state-of-the art modern technology is really and always better than the the simplicity of yesterday..
But I am getting a bit philosophical and I don't want to open another can of worms regarding the merits of some of the older stuff.

Ittiandro
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9500

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite honestly, other than the Hot Sails Maui Superfreak, I can't recollect a fully dacron sail made in the 90s. Take a picture of it and post it. I'm very interested in seeing it. No doubt, we will all benefit from seeing what you got.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2331

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point ittiandro.

In the days before fragile monofilm took over (and the prices stayed the same) my favourite sail construction was Dacron (fully battened, of course) with a shiny Mylar coating on one side only .It looked a bit odd, but the Mylar prevented the Dacron from stretching and bulging out with middle age spread.

Those sails were certainly more durable than many flimsy thin lightweight monofilm offerings, and they also had a distinctive feel to their performance. I wish modern sails were available in that constuction method!
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 775
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Quite honestly, other than the Hot Sails Maui Superfreak, I can't recollect a fully dacron sail made in the 90s. Take a picture of it and post it. I'm very interested in seeing it. No doubt, we will all benefit from seeing what you got.


Yes, this is correct.
What "I" is talking about is a mylar sail, not Dacron. A Neil Pryde Garda is (I think) a late 80's mylar sail.
In the 70's and early 80's most sails were Dacron.
By the mid - late 80's they were mostly all mylar.
Mylar was a composite sail cloth made from laminating Dacron to a thin, clear, film.
I think these sail look cool, they are colorful... but one side is not shiny (the Dacron side) and this is the side you lay on the ground when rigging. The other clues, are the graphics, logos, names, specs, and batten adjusting straps... will all be "facing up" when you rig.
The "facing-up" side is shiny and that's the fragile film side.
Mylar was an advancement over Dacron, cause it didn't get "blown out"... over time... which would happen to Dacron (especially with lots of time in high wind). The clear film laminated to the Dacron prevented "sail stretch", another term for what happened to older Dacron sails.
Then, by 1990 (and the early 90's)... most all brands moved bit by bit into just making monofilm sails.
They simply removed the Dacron... leaving only the clear "film".
These were not colorful... but they were awesome performance. They were the lightest.. and they stayed light when wet, cause the material didn't absorb and hold any water (as opposed to old worn-out Dacron which would soak up with water)... and they provided great performance for a long time, cause they didn't stretch.
The only downside was that they were fragile. But the shops and reps and magazine's all taught us how to take care of these fragile hi-performance sails.
If you took care of them properly, sailed them right, didn't leave them laying around (while not in use) in the sun... they'd last MANY years. I'm mostly a fresh-water / flat-water windsurfer. Who sails in light and moderate and high wind (on longboards, and many shortboards). And my lightweight monofilm UP (Ultra Profile) cambered race sails (medium to big size) and my UP bump n jump freeride sails (medium to little sizes)... are holding up GREAT. No fading, no damage, they look just about like they did, when I bought them brand new in 1993.

All the top brands made sails like this.

They went away as the 90's progressed, due to demands for durability.
Because sails made they way mine are, would not hold up to the demands of wave sailing. Or by big guys using them hard, in demanding high wind, and rough conditions. (Although, I'm 200# always have been, and still use mine in the Gorge. Although, I admit I'm probably easier on gear than other's. Still while reaching back and forth with average Gorge basic sailors, I go about as fast as the average guy. And I have certainly crashed into them 100's of times in the last 20 years.)

But the biggest durability issue for average sailors was, they didn't take care of them the way they were told to. They'd drag 'em around on the beach, over rock, etc. Rig 'em on concrete. Leaving 'em laying out in the sun all summer. Whatever you could think of that would cause punctures or rips, and "wear" to the fragile monofilm

Anyway, through the 90's they made monofilm sails a little stronger and more durable every few years... because they hated fixing all these warrantee claims... and people just wouldn't take care of them...and customer's wanted them more durable and stronger.
So the companies responded. Monofilm got thicker, then they laminated 2 pieces together with "strings" criss-crossing in the middle, and they continued increasing the reinforcements and adding "stress patches" in susceptible areas.
ALL this did make the sails more durable and strong... and it added weight.

These days you can buy brand new, very expensive, and fragile, AND lightweight "longboard - raceboard sails" usually only in 9.5 size (because it's a race class). AND they are made very similar to my '94 Up race sail. Not saying the design and performance is the same (although it is similar)... but I'm saying the construction method and materials, is about the same.

The difficult part these days, is if you want to find a used sail like mine in good shape... because that's almost impossible.

BTW - The Garda will be an ok sail for him, but not great. It's called the Garda, cause NP sold lots of high wind sails at Lake Garda in Italy. The Garda sail is a RAF sail, it's not cammed. It's a shortboard sail for higher winds. But for $50 he can take the battens out of the middle pockets (leave the top and bottom battens, cause you need the sail to have some of it's shape)... and it will probably work for him through his novice stage.
But there are certainly better sails for easy light wind sailing on basic longboards or WindSUP's... once he gets more sail handling skills, and wants to go a bit faster in light wind's.
Greg -
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregnw44 wrote:
swchandler wrote:
Quite honestly, other than the Hot Sails Maui Superfreak, I can't recollect a fully dacron sail made in the 90s. Take a picture of it and post it. I'm very interested in seeing it. No doubt, we will all benefit from seeing what you got.


Yes, this is correct.
What "I" is talking about is a mylar sail, not Dacron. A Neil Pryde Garda is (I think) a late 80's mylar sail.
In the 70's and early 80's most sails were Dacron.
By the mid - late 80's they were mostly all mylar.
Mylar was a composite sail cloth made from laminating Dacron to a thin, clear, film.
I think these sail look cool, they are colorful... but one side is not shiny (the Dacron side) and this is the side you lay on the ground when rigging. The other clues, are the graphics, logos, names, specs, and batten adjusting straps... will all be "facing up" when you rig.
The clear film laminated to the Dacron prevented "sail stretch", another term for what happened to older Dacron sails.

BTW - The Garda will be an ok sail for him, but not great. It's called the Garda, cause NP sold lots of high wind sails at Lake Garda in Italy. The Garda sail is a RAF sail, it's not cammed. It's a shortboard sail for higher winds. But for $50 he can take the battens out of the middle pockets (leave the top and bottom battens, cause you need the sail to have some of it's shape)... and it will probably work for him through his novice stage.
But there are certainly better sails for easy light wind sailing on basic longboards or WindSUP's... once he gets more sail handling skills, and wants to go a bit faster in light wind's.
Greg -


Thanks for the comments. Excellent information. To be precise, N.P. confirm that this sail came out in the early 90's. I was not too sure it was Dacron. Not being familiar with the technicalities and the look of various fabrics, I thought so because of the lightness. It is probably Mylar,then. However the two sides look identical. There is no ďshinyĒ side. If it is a Mylar, should I expect it to absorb more water than other modern sails? No big deal. Just curious. Also, which are these " better" sails for " easy light wind sailing ", on SUPS and longboards, besides dedicated sails like the Aerotech SUP and the BIC SUP?

THanks

Ittiandro



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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 775
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice pics !!
And no, you're right... I'm wrong.
As I said in my post... "I think" the Garda is a Mylar sail.
But looking at these pics (and your description... no shiny side)... it is Dacron!

Interesting that you say NP confirms this sail is from the early 90's. May I ask "who" confirmed that?

Cause here's what I'd say.

I suppose it is possible this is an early 90's sail. But I'm skeptical. The panel layout and the Dacron sail and the vinyl plastic window all suggest mid to late 80's... maybe as late as 1990.

Anyway, I bought my first Mylar sails in '87 (and they were available before that). They were Gaastra's.
And NP certainly had sail models, made from mylar. But it's also likely, they still made some Dacron sail models as well.
However, by '92 - '95... I doubt any of the brands still made Dacron only sails.
In fact, as I said, you'd hardly see mylar sails by then. Cause everyone had gone to monofilm (certainly by around '95).

Anyway, none of this matters very much, LOL

You have a nice old, light 6.2 sail there. There is only 4 battens... and they are very light (and NOT stiff) battens... you should leave then in the sail. I doubt you'll notice any performance increase in 5 mph wind by taking out the middle two (although you could certainly test against other sailors).

It's funny, cause on the one hand... the seller of this sail was VERY lucky to get $50 for it Smile
But on the other hand, for a novice-intermediate guy learning and sailing in wind under 10 knots or 12 mph... this sail will have very good value... and is worth more than a heavy, modern 6.2 that is meant for high-wind planning !!

This sail is a "short-boom" sail, which will be easy to handle. It's tall by modern norms, and will take a 460 mast with probably at least 15-30 cm of mast extension. A longer boom-ed sail... yet still old and light... 6.2 would have slightly better, "(very) low wind performance" for longboards or hybrids. But when it's gets windier the Garda will be easier to handle.

Yes, when the Dacron is very worn, it will hold water... but big deal... it's only a 6.2. It would be more much noticeable if it was a 11M size.

Regarding "what are other old, light, good, light-wind longboard (WindSUP, Hybrid) sails ???
There are a million, like the other's have said.
From '85 to '95 there were 100 different windsurfing sail makers. And most of them offered 10 - 20 different sail design lines.
Anything you find, from between these years, will be fine for sailing very light wind, up to 10 knots. Actually, they're fine for some basic moderate high-ish wind too, just rig a smaller size.
Gotta go... I'm out for a few days!
Greg Smile
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregnw44 wrote:
Nice pics !!


Interesting that you say NP confirms this sail is from the early 90's. May I ask "who" confirmed that?



I got the answer from a Todd Greaux (todd@npusa.com )and a Sergio Basic( sergiobacic@npusa.com) both of NP USA. Since I donít have your e-mail address, I will quote their reply

Quote
Hello Franco,
The RAF GARDA 6.2 was designed for planning short boards. It would be a suitable sail for long boarding as well. But the sailís outline shape and 5 compression batten structure (no-camber battens) would have made it ideal for short boarding and was one of the best all-around performance sails of its time. For more information: this sail was designed and distributed during the early 90s. Approximately 1991-94. The luff sleeve is about 4.90m and boom about 1.65m. This is not a true wave sail (like the Combat) or slalom (RAF Slalom) sail, but a better all-around for a sailor of larger size or lighter winds (15-18mph). I hope I have answered all your questions please let me know if you need anything else.

Kind Regards, Unquote
It is signed by a Sergio Basic, Manager of Adventure Sports at Fort LauderLauderdale, Fla
I donít know the connection between Adventure Sports and NP, but the e-mail address refers to NP USA (sergiobacic@npusa.com)

Regards

Ittiandro
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9500

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ittiandro,

Great research, and I think that the time is right ('91-'94). From an information standpoint, I also think you have everything you need. The sail will have a higher level COE, being a sail design that existed before leech looseness and progressive twist were refined into sail design. Still though, NPs often included a leech tensioner line where you could tighten the leech if you want to. During that time mast tracks on boards were considerably forward, where there was arguably more rake possible, and a higher COE went hand in hand. The boards of the time also had wide point forward, along with more volume forward too, with thinner and narrower tails.

The only thing missing from the research is the technology of the sail fabrics. Nevertheless, my Windwing Sails from 1991 were built with similar composite fabrics. They definitely weren't dacron like in the late 70s and early 80s, and the composite design offered very good low stretch characteristics.

From your photos, I think that you'll get some good time with this sail. Also, sails of the time weren't so mast sensitive as they are today. If I recollect correctly, NP was more constant curve rather than flex top oriented ones. Norths and Windwings of the time were true flex tops, and I still have a couple of Powerex Red Carbon masts from '91-'92 that matched my Windwing Race Sails of the time. In fact, I still have the 4.2 and 4.7 Races in storage, and the latter one is sprayed with tar from sailing at IV the first day I used it. It's nice having a bit of history from great times.


Last edited by swchandler on Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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