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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:54 am    Post subject: Reap as ye sow Reply with quote

From this mornings news (AP). "Cherif Kouachi, one of the French borthers behind the Charlie Hebdo killings, appears to have been first radicalized by hearing of abuses of Iraqi inmates by American guards at Abu Ghraib prison."

Of course we know now (and I was certain then) that those guards were imitating what went on in the black sites. Nothing like winning the military war and losing the cultural battle.

Or as the song goes, when will they ever learn?
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm surprised (not really) at you Mac.

You must know full well that these fanatical Islamic fundamentalists have a single twisted aim - to destroy all secular western society, and impose fundamentalist Islam (their version of it) on the world.

They play liberal western fools who seek equivalence and excuses for their slaughter and mayhem, when all along they have had this single aim.

Moderate Muslim leaders who are now speaking out (about time too) are unreservedly condemning these murderous savages who use a perverted form of Islam to justify their barbarity. Theses leaders catagorically state that these murderous people are a disgrace to the religion of Islam, and have no justification whatever for what they do, and why they claim to be doing it. They are simply at war with western freedom of thought and speech!!

But you try to seek equivalence and cause for their actions!

Indeed, when will you ever learn!
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said GT. As you say, liberal Western fools who fall over themselves to make excuses for barbaric behavior, but are so unforgiving of the actions of those who are trying to protect us.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those whose values are hollow can't wait to make up words to try to put in others mouths. Nowhere did I "make excuse for barbaric behavior."--either by extremists in other countries, or torturers paid millions of dollars through a black budget.

It was always clear that we could kill a subset of extremists. The question was whether or not we could also win hearts and minds, or we would end up creating even more terrorists. After however many years of the Vietnam war, where we killed 6 million at the cost of 55,000 American deaths, and what now, thirteen years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq--not including the proxy war with the Soviet Union where we trained the seeds of Al Queda--the right says we need more of the same. We find ourselves still up to our asses in terrorists, but we don't want to consider the wisdom of what we are doing. The most insightful comments that I have heard or read interpret what is going on as a war for power and influence in the Muslim world. Certainly the infrastructure for terror has been funded and encouraged by Iran and Saudia Arabia, struggling for hegemony in the Muslim world. Yet we were foolish enough to think that invading Iraq would change all that.

I know introspection--or integrity in responses--is not a right wing hallmark. You demonstrate every time you touch the keyboard.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, lets do some reaping, after we've done some sowing.
I get your contention, but it was our Main Stream Media that took those pics and spread them all over the place to get the kind of reaction that they were after.
But then you have this~
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/01/07/white-house-questioned-french-magazines-judgment-in-2012-for-publishing-naked-muhammad-cartoon/

If it was good enough for our media to spread that all over the place, then it should be good enough for France to do the same thing with their publications,,,,,,,,, but no.

You can try, but you can't have it both ways.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NW--I think you just don't get it. The cartoons were not couth, but they are still, under the culture in this country, protected speech. They were not inciting a riot, falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater, or any of the other reasons that speech can be restrained. The ACLU defended the free speech rights of Nazis, not because they agreed with them, or thought that their speech was sensible--or even sane--but because it is a corner freedom.

I do think it is pretty funny that "conservatives" who talk about protecting rights, are jumping up and down blaming the editors. They were rude and immature--so what?
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
NW--I think you just don't get it. The cartoons were not couth, but they are still, under the culture in this country, protected speech. They were not inciting a riot, falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater, or any of the other reasons that speech can be restrained. The ACLU defended the free speech rights of Nazis, not because they agreed with them, or thought that their speech was sensible--or even sane--but because it is a corner freedom.

I do think it is pretty funny that "conservatives" who talk about protecting rights, are jumping up and down blaming the editors. They were rude and immature--so what?

LOL, tell that to Sarah Palin or the crew of Saturday Night Live, like Tina Fey, who said most of the things that were inaccurately attributed to Sarah Palin. You've got a long stretch of bumpy road to make that claim palzy.
But keep trying, I know you will, this very small audience of yours is something very valuable to you evidently, so keep it up.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fallacy of the western intellectual approach to radicalism is summed up in your statement, 'whether or not we can win hearts and minds.'

Fanatical regimes, whether political (Nazi) or religious (radical Islam) CANNOT BE REASONED WITH!

The Jewish intellectual community during the rise of Hitler and the Nazi state made that error, till they themselves ended up as a part of the Final Solution. What do you suppose will be the growing menace of radical Islams 'final solution. (Death to ALL infidels?)

Perhaps you need to visit, or live in, France, and see for yourself the present reality, and outrage.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2807

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:

You must know full well that these fanatical Islamic fundamentalists have a single twisted aim -


Not unlike Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bolton, Bush, Perle, Kristol, and the other fanatical neo-cons.

.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, GT--is your solution occupation of multiple countries in the Middle East, Asia, and Northern Africa, and become the symbol for neo-Crusaders? Particularly when soldiers take it upon themselves to proselytize?

This is a struggle for the heart of Islam, between the radicals and the non-radicals. A western presence as an army of occupation has, in Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan, and Iraq, become a symbol that has strengthened the hand of the radicals. The United States is spending nearly all of the military costs, and I think we all know that the military is a blunt weapon. Iran and Saudia Arabia are stirring the pot--as the United States and the Soviet Union did before the collapse of the Soviet Union and the collapse of Afghanistan.

Tell me how this strategy is working? And don't put words in my mouth. I think that criminal activities should be pursued as such, not tolerated, and we were right in extending our intelligence capability to do so. I just disagree with extending those intelligence efforts to Americans without probable cause, and to treating this as primarily a military matter. There is no state to fight. And there is no victory without moderate Islam becoming deeply involved at cultural, religious, and political levels.
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