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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| coachg wrote: | | Offshore & Lake Michigan doesn't sound like a good combination ...the chop in offshore winds is not as big because of the shorter fetch. |
That advantage diminishes as one gets blown ever farther out to sea. I'm guessing the terrain gets pretty high by the time he reaches Beaver Island.  |
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DanWeiss
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2296
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| PeconicPuffin wrote: | | zirtaeb wrote: | With slalom, it takes full expert level pilots to get top speeds, and more than that to plane out of most jibes.
With fast freeride gear, most expert sailors can hit the same top speeds, take a few seconds longer to get there, and plane out of more jibes than they ever could with full slalom gear. |
I think that nails it. Unless you're an expert, a slalom board offers no advantages. And if you are an expert you're trading handling in chop and comparative ease of jibing for a few mph. |
As a former slalom and FW racer, I tend to agree with Mssr. Puffin, though as much for tuning and testing that goes with an active slalom racer -apart from or as part of expertise.
When a bunch of us tested a variety of light wind boards for the final Windsurfing Mag test a few years ago, both full-blown slalom and slalom-oriented freeride, the same truth came out.
Both slalom and freeride (from this point on, slalom-oriented freeride) boards were screaming around yet at very different speeds and handling characteristics depending on sailor and actual sails used. The pure slalom boards were easily the fastest in a straight line -but only when the sailors used cammed sails, rigged at least 1/2 meter larger and used really good fins. Only then could an observer see the big difference. The race boards simply didn't come into their own when using m RAFost or wave sails or sub-prime fins. Both lack the stability to maintain steady mast base and fin pressure.
Other differences in performance certainly appeared subject to personal sailing skill. The slalom boards exited jibes with more speed than the freerides only when the sailor on the slalom board applied solid technique as well as commitment. Otherwise, they bogged down on exit and demonstrated a few hard crashes.
Since everything on a freeride board is less exacting, one could more easily toss on any rig and settle down for a fast and smooth ride, whereas the race boards usually needed some rig and board tuning to feel good. I remember spending at least an hour making small changes to the Starboard Ultra Sonic (too wide for PWA legality but pretty much 100% race) and my sail, including different fins, boom height and foot strap tension. Same with the Angulo Magnums, though a bit less so. Once the tuning was complete those race boards sailed very easy through short and steep chop and jibed with ease.
The question is whether you want to invest more tuning time and try a number of different fins that will allow you to get the slalom board comfortable and fast -just as it was designed. If so, and you have the fitness that's needed to react quickly when overpowered, go for a slalom board.
If not, there are dozens of freeride boards that offer more accessible performance and can be faster overall in your hands without the tweaking and dweebing needed to get a slalom board to its stunning limit.
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J64TWB
Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1685
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the insight Dan. High performance freeride is where I am at for my smaller sails.
It would be interesting to play once or twice with a 80cm wide slalom board in very light winds with a 7.5 or 8.5 to use it as a "mini" formula. The shape and width looks enticing for a lightweight like me on flat water to get planing when others cant.
Who cares about gybing them. Could be fun. |
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dllee
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 5329
Location: East Bay
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent post above.
You want a Buick, or do you want a Porsche? Buicks work every day. Buick's start and run, no fuss, cost little to maintain. Some better Buicks are similar to Cadillac's highest performane sedans.
Porsche, what, it's a maintainance machine, you PAY for the maintainance, done every 3,000 miles. Bumpers are fragile, tires are fragile, you hit a bump, you PAY for suspension fix. You tune it up every 12,000 miles, or it runs like CRAP!. You can't allow anyone to lean on it, sit on it, or walk by it looking sideways at it.
Which would you want? A high performance Buick, or a higher performance Porsche.
Now, which can you really afford? |
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PeconicPuffin
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:45 am Post subject: |
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I would say in windsurfing we want the best Porsche we're able to keep on the road. It's part of the fun! I think a better comparison is "You want a Porsche or a drag racer?" (and hey I've been agreeing with you right down the line in this thread...as a former slalom board owner.)
| zirtaeb wrote: | Excellent post above.
You want a Buick, or do you want a Porsche? Buicks work every day. Buick's start and run, no fuss, cost little to maintain. Some better Buicks are similar to Cadillac's highest performane sedans.
Porsche, what, it's a maintainance machine, you PAY for the maintainance, done every 3,000 miles. Bumpers are fragile, tires are fragile, you hit a bump, you PAY for suspension fix. You tune it up every 12,000 miles, or it runs like CRAP!. You can't allow anyone to lean on it, sit on it, or walk by it looking sideways at it.
Which would you want? A high performance Buick, or a higher performance Porsche.
Now, which can you really afford? |
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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com |
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DW
Joined: 15 Jul 2014
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:49 am Post subject: Re: board segment questions |
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| frederick23 wrote: |
I really like straps in the out position, seat harness, pushing the board as fast as I am comfortable given chop. I like a board that is smooth and stable over chop, but when you push the rail, it bites. Thats it.
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I'm with you. I found nirvana with the 118 JP Magic Ride. So much so, I bought my wife the 104 Magic Ride and we sold off our JP Freestyle Wave and refuse to ride other boards.
In my mind, the wide flat deck and thin shape are the future. I blast around in the ocean and its so smooth and fun, yet fast. An absolute blast.
I post a lots of photos of us riding them here http://www.supsurfmachines.com/
In this blog post
http://www.supsurfmachines.com/nc-paddle-surfer-blog/2014/6/21/windsurfers-and-kitersurfer-at-corncake
I'm blowing the doors off my kiting buddy who's on a 12m kite in probably 16-18 mph wind. I kite too, but rarely anymore. I'd say I can match a 12m kite low end with my 6.9 sail on the 118 Magic Ride at 172 lbs, if that helps judge the low end. |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Since I sail FW and slalom, I am familiar with the outboard straps. BUT, the back strap is always hard to get into, and if you are into chop hopping, outboard straps are a huge handicap. There may be a way to get air with the outboard straps, but I haven't been bold enough to experiment much. A few attempts and I decided to wait until I get on my bump and jump boards.
And by the way, I only use race sails on my FW and Slalom and RAF sails on my smaller boards. |
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J64TWB
Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1685
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Very interested in trying the Magic Ride and Atomiq and would appreciate hearing from anyone who has ridden both. The RRD seems a little wide. Yes techno, one of my challenges is that back footstrap in out position. It's a bold nano second. Love the straps in the out position though. More prone to spinout in chop as well. |
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DW
Joined: 15 Jul 2014
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| JP 118 Magic Ride has a crazy amount of strap positions. Middle rear, out on the rail, then almost over the rail with heels dragging in the water. The conservative out on the rail position works right for me. It's like slalom strap positions from 10 years ago. |
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AG80
Joined: 04 Mar 2014
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| The "freemove" boards are well worth a demo. I have the Exocet X-cross 115 and have similar experiences as supSurf with his Magic Ride. Will use from 5.0-7.5 sails. Will plane with 7.5 in 12-13 knots. I weigh 80 kg and sail mostly inland lakes. |
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