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board segment questions
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3938
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bottom line..... read the FIRST post again.
Now, knowing the poster is intermediate, NOT advanced, NOT expert, would you still advise a full race slalom board?
Notice OP, like me, don't like to use max sail sizing for the given winds.
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3258

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ever the intermediate if one does not apply logic of board and sail tuning.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2611

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: board segment questions Reply with quote

frederick23 wrote:
Why do all slalom boards use big sails? On my 130L freeride I can use a 6.0 and be perfect.

What happens when I use a 6.0 on a 130L slalom board that is rated for 8.0 - 10?

it seems most boards in my segment 105L - 130L will perform similar in speed, but may differ in turning capacity?


Unlike your freeride board designed for 170-175 lb sailor, slalom boards are designed for 200+ lb team riders.

You can use your 6.0 on a 130 but only if the water is really flat at your weight & you pair it with an appropriate sized fin. Any chop & you will get bounced off the water, especially in jibes.

Depending on the board brand there will be a change in bottom shape between 100 & 110 liters for a board designed for flat water to a board designed for more chop. A 105 will likely perform much different than a 130.

Unfortunately at your weight you may prefer to go with a custom board if you were to go with a slalom board.

Coach G
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3938
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still, too many replies based solely on the experience of SELF, and not enough thought about the needs of a 145 lbs sailor who has NOT mastered jibing, setup, trim angles, and board sizing ideas, in other words, an INTERMEDIATE sailor, not a 190 lbs EXPERT, like some of you guys.
Needs of lighter sailors is DIFFERENT than the needs of heavyweights.
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bluefish1



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1091

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intermediate for sure. I brought up the slalom only because sail size recommendations are SO much bigger than freeride, freemove and freerace given the same size board. Was just curious on that. My old board from 20 years ago was labeled slalom and it turns way better than my new freeride.

I will keep my 130 JP freeride as my biggest board for 6.5 -7.5, It is a very passive board and actually handles chop very well, just has no feel. I really like it because I can sail it in 20 years when I am 72. I will be trying newer smaller boards in the ride, race, move segment for use with my 4.5 - 5.5. Probably have 2 boards in quiver. The ride, race, move segments seem to have similar characteristics in speed, but possible different feel? My guess is, I need a performance freeride, or possibly the new short wide stuff. That segment is where I need to demo. Unfortunately I need to be able to uphaul in gusty, shifty slog zone with offshore winds carrying extra weight in big sails, wetsuits, PFD etc. Safety is always a concern. The smaller board I will be able to use inland to improve my skills and when comfortable, be able to take out on Lake Michigan in the right conditions.

Excellent advice here.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 3125

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frederick23 said:
Quote:
Intermediate for sure. I brought up the slalom only because sail size recommendations are SO much bigger than freeride, freemove and freerace given the same size board.

Just to clarify if needed, slalom racers want to go fast and big boards can be really rough in 20+ knot winds. So, for example with my iSonic 111. It's 108 liters and carries an 8.4 nicely, but my 7.6 is a bit better. In 20 mph of wind on my 7.6 (pretty much my limit or a little less), the ride and chop in open water gets crazy, but for a 200 lb racer, he would be doing just fine with an 8.4 in the same conditions. As mentioned before, slalom boards are wider in the tail so they can plane earlier out of gybes and carry larger sails.

If I can't get planning on my iSonic, my next board up is my Formula board with an 11.0 or 9.2. Normally, if I am getting overpowered on my 9.2, I can usually drop to my iSonic and a 7.6. I weigh 170. At your weight, uphauling anything over 100 liters is very doable without the board going under. Over 120 liters and it's a piece of cake.

There are many answers and options, some better than others, but that's the nature of the sport with a vast number of variables.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9097

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on LeeD (zirtaeb), if anyone is particularly pushy on this topic, it's you. I'm not telling frederick what to do, but instead, I trying to offer what I think is a fair assessment of slalom boards. Really, they're not as difficult or as limiting as many like to brand them. Also, the idea that they are created for 200 lb. experts is just nonsense. Just look a any slalom line being offered by any of the major companies. There are lots of different volumes one can choose from. For a guy of frederick's weight, an 80-110 liter model could readily meet his needs depending on his wind targets and the relative water conditions. I'm not a big guy, and if I lost 10-15 lbs, I'd be at his weight, so it's not like I'm coming from another planet.

Regarding the different sail designs available today, in the 6.0-7.5 range one can easily focus on cam or camless models with 6 to 7 or more battens and larger foot configurations for an emphasis on speed, overall wind range and windward ability. It's not necessary to buy 4-6 cambered sails with wide luff sleeves to have fun with slalom boards. Even a 5 batten wave sail will work fine. You're going to miss some of the power and stability advantages that racier sail designs offer, but you'll likely be capable of tighter and faster turns because you don't have to deal with the larger foot configuration. With the exception of the highest end race sails, any of the racier 2-3 cam or RAF sail models out there could readily be the target models for speedier freerace or freeride boards too.

Lastly, years ago, before the industry was offering boards for every imaginable niche, stepping up to a slalom board was par for the course for most aspiring sailors looking to be quick on the water. Today, modern slalom boards are arguably friendlier and easier to ride than in the past. Let's not railroad folks based on prejudiced views of their needs and abilities. Let's be more open and fair about things and let folks select for themselves what best meets their needs and goals.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3938
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree on your board size choice, but 90-110 is more than enough.
I just ordered a JPSSport109 for 6-8 meter sails.
Can we agree I'm at least an Expert level sailor? I have ridden the 107Isonic, XFire112, Manta that volume. Those board need power going into and especially OUT of the jibes, so sailing along planing fast, but underpowered is a no no. You must know, a light board DE accelerates almost as quickly as it accelerates. A weight difference of 2 lbs is HUGE.
Agree most guys around 155 and up can get the slalom boards up to full speeds and still jibe well.
Agree, slalom boards NOW are friendlier than in the past. However, there is a reason that fast freerides own a very big niche in the go fast market. There is a reason for their existence. Slightly softer rails, thinner rails, more V, deeper concaves, more overall curve, a tiny bit stronger against dents from harness hooks and rocks, some even using PowerBox for ease and quickness of removing and installing the fin, softer ride it it's slightly lower topspeed (less exotic construction) and probably a few more factors.
Believe it, no matter WHAT board WE ride, the real pros are going faster than us. So, why not ride a board that is fast for US, fast enough to pass or keep up with our peers, and let the Pros like Tyson use their ProSlalom boards for 3 months, sell it for another one that season, while we keep our Fast Freeride boards for 3+ years?
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SergioKapul



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick note, I'm 135 lb 5'6", there's another guy at my beachs about my size...
both of us in lighter wind and sails >=7 use slalom or formula... Coming form freerides, etc.. if freerides worked better we would be on freerides, but they don't and ride is so much more FUN on slalom. So, don't even start on lightweights and slalom don't mix. And the reason freerides more popular is perception and few 'experts' offering advise. While shapes progressed the
old idea that race gear is hard to ride remained. To me it's very simple, if
freerides jibed better, had better wind range or faster, pro's would be using them (Taty is lightweight and doing well at PWA BTW)
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2611

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

frederick23,

Sounds like you are on the right track. Plenty of 100 liter freeride boards out there for you to choose from. Offshore & Lake Michigan doesn't sound like a good combination but it sounds like you play it smart. I too, some times sail in offshore conditions so I favor a floaty board with smaller sail as the chop in offshore winds is not as big because of the shorter fetch.

Coachg
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