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Sailboarder



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 656

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP wants a second board for choppier weather, but also wants volume for flotation. I personally think a second board only 10l smaller than the first one is way too much overlap if that board is another Freemove. Why not change program to a freeride or FSW board? The board will have less width, more thickness to maintain volume and will be better suited to conditions.

AtomIQ 120 is 80 wide, 6.0-9.0, while a Carve 111 is 66, 5.0-8.0


I would also like to add that fin lenght makes a big difference for chop handling too. A long fin forces the board to stay flat, the rails will bite on chop much more that with a shorter fin.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailboarder wrote:
the rails will bite on chop much more that with a shorter fin.

Plus ... sharp forward rails bite worse than softer ones. Sharp ones get "distracted", often outright "diverted" on small boards, by each noticeable piece of chop they hit. The second-worst ride* I've ever experienced was on an AHD high-wind slalom board with concave rails (to help it go upwind to the mark); its forward rails snagged of EVERY little piece of chop, yanking the board left or right abruptly and incessantly. After one round trip I refused to test it in fear of my ankles. The effect isn't as brutal on less severe rails, but it's still noticeable compared to rounder ones.

* First place goes to a Windance B&J board with zero V, concave, roundness ... nuthin' but flat rail to rail and not much rocker. It beat the holy crap out of the rider ... another board I refused to test past one single outbound reach (I sheeted out on the return reach to avoid planing).

In general, straight lines in a hull are detrimental to handling and comfort in chop.
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gvogelsang



Joined: 09 Nov 1988
Posts: 435

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adywind wrote:
I'm warming up to the idea that the volume for a high wind board /no down the line wave riding!/ can be based on the simple formula: riders weight in kg +10=the boards volume which for a 215Lb man will indeed be a 110L. In case you want to use it as a weight loss motivational tool get a size smaller Smile
Now for what type of a board to choose- it depends of what you want to do. A given volume will float you the same in the lules, but the wider the board the more stable it will be and better the chances for the less experienced to stay dry. Still, there comes the point where stability becomes boredom and I agree that a boring high wind board makes no sense. In my mind the short and wide "freemoves" have always been moderate to medium wind boards to be sailed with 4 footstraps-a freerace board alternative if you want and I'm convinced now that they are better at that then the official freerace boards.
For maneuver heavy, B&J type sailing even without a hint of waveriding I agree with Isobars-there are better alternatives. Unless of course-straight line blasting and racing with the pals is your one and only thing ; all of your rigs are blasting biased and you have a body of water flat enough to do it in comfort then the freemove would be a good choice again, but you still may consider the Allride, the Hawk or the Starship for example as an alternative-which are somewher in-between the freemoves and the FSWs.


I had an Allride 116 in my quiver, and sailed it the same day that I sailed the Firemove 122 in 5.5 conditions. The Firemove actually felt smoother on the water, and the extra width enabled me to save a few jibes, which is always nice when overpowered. The Allride was not fun, and I made no jibes.

Yes, it probably would make sense to pick up a fsw board of 105 - 110 lts, and a wave sail of something like 5.3. But, first I would like to try a freemove of around 110.
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adywind



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 665

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because of the reduced thickness I think, the freemoves ride deeper in the water -like a board with deep concaves. That's the reason it feels smooth and in control regardless of the extra width and fast rocker. Before the AtomiQ my flat water board was a RRD Firerace 112 so I know what a bumpy ride is. With most of its volume in the back, virtually flat hull and tiny footpads it was fast but hard to control below 6.5 and not comfortable at all. Not so with the AtomIQ -it's thinner; the volume is spread around; there is some V/increasing gradually towards the back/ and the "sponge" pads are soft as slippers -no problem with the 5.8/a lifty crossover 5 batten sail/ in the small lake or behind the break wall and Im sure I would be fine with a 5.5 freerace sail like the Cheetah /and a smaller fin/ even though I'm just 165Lb. The added bonus is the stability and ability to cary larger sails which is beneficial for big guys IMO. It's just the overlap of the 120 and 110 that I see here as an issue, but you can ditch the 120 if it becomes redundant.
You are right about the Allride I guess -thick and relatively flat underneath it will be quite bouncy I'd imagine. The Starship-another one with rather classic dimensions -on the other hand has very deep concaves wich make it slow but smooth I've read.
My priorities are turning towards jumping now so Im looking into the FSWs for a strong wind board-placing my bets on a Kode 86 to be my jumping machine /not as hardcore as a freestyle board/. Once I dial in the "Forward" then maybe I'll switch to a fast wave board to start indulging in some wave riding too. We are spoiled for choice nowadays-even picky Isobars was able to find a modern board to his liking as far as I know Wink .
PS: Oh and btw if you set up the board with 3 footstraps and keep your weight over your front foot at all times going over high chop will be a lot easier-no spinouts. In this case it may be a good idea to also replace the Cheetah with a stable wave sail like the Tiger for example for better handling and less back foot pressure. I think 5.5 calls for a dedicated board Confused With some weight -loosing effort you may make a 100L work and keep the 120 as a freerace for 6.5/7.5 and the formula for the bigger ones. Makes sense, no?!


Last edited by adywind on Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justall wrote:
isobars wrote:
... as long as it's not offshore.


What adjustments would you make to these if offshore?


Presuming that not being able to return to my launch poses unacceptable threat to my life or well-being* and that we're talking nearly dead offshore, not just side-off, I'd add much more volume, bigger/straighter fin plus a daggerboard, straighter lines in the hull (i.e., a board designed for pinching), an oversized sail, GPS, spare harness line and u-joint, marine radio, signalling devices, filing a trip plan with friends, fluids, making sure there are MANY recreational boats out where I'll be, and a looooong tether to shore.

I wouldn't launch in the first place if the consequences of not sailing back to shore mean anything worse than a really long walk.

* I've chosen to sail offshore winds where the biggest risk -- a very real one -- was spending the night on an uninhabited desert shore in moderate weather. That was a calculated gamble with huge payoff if it worked as carefully planned. What I got was half a day of the biggest, cleanest, overhead swell I have ever seen in very windy New Mexico. A Great Lake? An ocean? No way in hell unless I was CERTAIN I could abandon my gear and EASILY swim to shore AND fantastic conditions warranted those risks.

Why so cautious?
1. I hope to die of something unavoidable rather than something I consider stupid.
2. I VERY OFTEN am unable to return to shore where I launched, because Gorge winds are usually very fickle (yet one more reason I rig big). In sideshore winds along a walkable shoreline that's merely a nuisance or a PITA; in a giant body of water and offshore winds that's Russian roulette and we don't know how many bullets are in the gun.
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kmf



Joined: 02 Apr 2001
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spent some time in Baja this winter, staying with Vela at Los Barilles. Bumpy jumpy conditions.
Most of the time I used a Starboard Kode 86 with a 5.3 NP sail, I weigh 165. But on a light wind day I was using a JP FSW 101 with a 5.7 and then a 6.2. Nice ride, smooth and manuverable. Didn't feel much different than the Kode. I decided to see what all of the hype was about and pulled out the JP magic ride 104, the foot straps in the centered positions.
Well I have to say that after a couple of hours on it, I was not stoked Boring, boring, boring. Yes it planed easily, yes it was comfortable, yes it made large radius turns without much fuss....but jeeezzzz. The JP FSW could sail circles around it and put a smile on your face.
But to each their own. After all some people think that driving a 3/4 ton Dodge Big Horny truck is fun......I'd rather have the Golf GTI, thank you.

KMF
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adywind



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 665

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmf wrote:
I spent some time in Baja this winter, staying with Vela at Los Barilles. Bumpy jumpy conditions.
Most of the time I used a Starboard Kode 86 with a 5.3 NP sail, I weigh 165. But on a light wind day I was using a JP FSW 101 with a 5.7 and then a 6.2. Nice ride, smooth and manuverable. Didn't feel much different than the Kode. I decided to see what all of the hype was about and pulled out the JP magic ride 104, the foot straps in the centered positions.
Well I have to say that after a couple of hours on it, I was not stoked Boring, boring, boring. Yes it planed easily, yes it was comfortable, yes it made large radius turns without much fuss....but jeeezzzz. The JP FSW could sail circles around it and put a smile on your face.
But to each their own. After all some people think that driving a 3/4 ton Dodge Big Horny truck is fun......I'd rather have the Golf GTI, thank you.

KMF

But don't you think that the freemove would be a good transition board for a B&J-first timer who is a very big man on top of that and his weight will make even a tanker turn on a dime?
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gvogelsang



Joined: 09 Nov 1988
Posts: 435

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adywind wrote:
kmf wrote:
I spent some time in Baja this winter, staying with Vela at Los Barilles. Bumpy jumpy conditions.
Most of the time I used a Starboard Kode 86 with a 5.3 NP sail, I weigh 165. But on a light wind day I was using a JP FSW 101 with a 5.7 and then a 6.2. Nice ride, smooth and manuverable. Didn't feel much different than the Kode. I decided to see what all of the hype was about and pulled out the JP magic ride 104, the foot straps in the centered positions.
Well I have to say that after a couple of hours on it, I was not stoked Boring, boring, boring. Yes it planed easily, yes it was comfortable, yes it made large radius turns without much fuss....but jeeezzzz. The JP FSW could sail circles around it and put a smile on your face.
But to each their own. After all some people think that driving a 3/4 ton Dodge Big Horny truck is fun......I'd rather have the Golf GTI, thank you.

KMF

But don't you think that the freemove would be a good transition board for a B&J-first timer who is a very big man on top of that and his weight will make even a tanker turn on a dime?


Good point.

15 years ago, I had an Angulo wave board that I used occasionally in 4.5, and later I had a F2 Ride that was nice in 5.5 - 6.5. I could jibe both of those boards a majority of the time.

These days I play more golf, and give golf lessons, and I am out of shape. I am also working 5 days a week. So I look for boards that I can survive a jibe, since staying upright is my biggest concern.

Instead of the Firemove 112, I might have to think about a FSW around 105.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gvogelsang wrote:
adywind wrote:
his weight will make even a tanker turn on a dime?

I am out of shape. I am also working 5 days a week. So I look for boards that I can survive a jibe, since staying upright is my biggest concern.

As long as staying upright trumps learning to jibe, your progress is doomed to be veeerrrrrrrry slow. As was printed for many years about learning to jibe, it requires total commitment to the turn, at any cost including a dunking. After all, our weight is inside the turn, where failure means getting wet.

MANY people with serious careers sail on windy weekdays, aka Windsdays. There was an article on exactly that published in magazines and here years ago.

Getting in excellent shape -- strength, aerobic, anaerobic, flexibility, heart, lungs, muscles, blood pressure, vigor, overall QOL, -- the whole works -- requires nothing more than motivation plus MUCH less than one hour per month of exertion (add a couple of hours per month for the warmup/cooldown parts, more if you really must drive to a gym.) Aren't the length and quality of your life worth that commitment?

At any rider weight, a board designed to jibe will still jibe more easily than a board designed to go straight.
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kmf



Joined: 02 Apr 2001
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adywind wrote....

"But don't you think that the freemove would be a good transition board for a B&J-first timer who is a very big man on top of that and his weight will make even a tanker turn on a dime?"

I think that the JP FSW is a better board in the conditions that I used it in. 5.7 to 6.2 RAF freeride sail, ocean sailing in Baja, bumpy side shore winds, with 4 foot swell and lots of wind chop. It is very friendly, quick to plane, well balanced, turns well and goes fast. What's not to like. I sailed an older JP FSW 112 that a friend owned last year at Swell City in the Gorge, and it was a real nice ride too. With a 6.5 Retro.

The Magic ride was a fine board, but I am here to have fun, not snooze. I don't think that the wide boards will ever turn as nicely as the FSW boards. Expecially since the JP FSW's have gotten more wavy throughout time. Don't get me wrong, I don't even own a JP FSW, but I have sailed them quite a bit over the years. I would purchase a JP FSW 101 in a heart beat if I could find a nice one for the right price....It would replace the JP 102 Excite ride that I own.

I can not choose for someone who's weight is so much more than mine, I lost 50 lbs a few years ago and had to change my whole quiver, so I realize that weight is huge.....pun....intended. But JP makes a bigger FSW also. They are much more fun to use, in my experience, than the Magic Ride, for me anyway.....

KMF
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