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sail problem or pilot error?
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2403

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weight is not always the determining factor.
Some light guys like powerful, less twisty sails.
Some extreme heavyweights like soft sails that breathe out and depower in the slightest gusts.
You have to find your own style, and adjust the sail to match.
"Heavyweights" like 275 lbs.
"Lightweights around 170 lbs.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14315

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
Why don't any rigging guides that I've ever seen address heavy sailor vs. light sailor? If rigging should change based on sailor weight, why don't some of these thorough guides address it? Don't these guys want their customers to get the most out of their sails? If a Sailworks sail, for example, is much rangier than what is printed in their guide, what would be their motive for printing the narrower range?

Not arguing. Hasn't anyone else wondered about this?

Not really, because personal preference is too powerful. It can and very often does lead to a 40% or even 50% difference between one man's chosen sail, board, and/or fin size even at the same rider weight, sailing B&J at the same venue. There are also many reasons and even more excuses to operate outside a given item's normal operating range, especially temporarily. I'd use a VERY different set of parts to sail in offshore vs onshore winds, or steady vs very rangey winds, or at noon vs dusk, or with vs without a big shoreline wind shadow, swell vs chop, tired vs fresh, etc. The right sized sail rigged normally will behave better than the wrong size rigged outside its normal range, but sometimes other circumstances rule.
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KevinDo



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 422
Location: Cabrillo Inside

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
I'm just not getting it, guys. Sure, slight variations in mast lengths and extension markings can make a difference if you use measurements only. But assuming you're using one of the recommended masts for your sail, and assuming that the rigging guide for your sail is based on visual references on the sail (the Sailworks gear, the Ezzy swoosh, verbage such as loose half way into second panel), how is it that you folks know more than the designer?

Why don't any rigging guides that I've ever seen address heavy sailor vs. light sailor? If rigging should change based on sailor weight, why don't some of these thorough guides address it? Don't these guys want their customers to get the most out of their sails? If a Sailworks sail, for example, is much rangier than what is printed in their guide, what would be their motive for printing the narrower range?

Not arguing. Hasn't anyone else wondered about this?


We probably aren't the right group to ask lol Very Happy

I personally use KA sails and the designer of the sails always tells me I need less downhaul yet the guys at Sandy who break 45knots all the time tell me I need more.
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 177

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear you. But when the author of the Sailworks guide is telling someone to use more downhaul than the maximum he recommends in his own tuning guide, I have a problem with that. Do a rigging guide rev.1, and let us mortals know what's going on. It obviously sails well like that for spennie, so put that bigger range in writing. It can only help sales.

I still can't see any references on relationship between weight and rigging. I would have guessed that smaller folks would be the ones who would benefit more from a heavily downhauled sail, since a 120lb person loads a 5.0 rig less than a 200lb person.

The Sailworks guide DOES mention that a tight leech pumps better than a loose leech. I suggested that was the case a few years ago, and was loudly booed.
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KevinDo



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 422
Location: Cabrillo Inside

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
I hear you. But when the author of the Sailworks guide is telling someone to use more downhaul than the maximum he recommends in his own tuning guide, I have a problem with that. Do a rigging guide rev.1, and let us mortals know what's going on. It obviously sails well like that for spennie, so put that bigger range in writing. It can only help sales.

I still can't see any references on relationship between weight and rigging. I would have guessed that smaller folks would be the ones who would benefit more from a heavily downhauled sail, since a 120lb person loads a 5.0 rig less than a 200lb person.

The Sailworks guide DOES mention that a tight leech pumps better than a loose leech. I suggested that was the case a few years ago, and was loudly booed.


Hmm I haven't read the tuning guide from sailworks but I know a few mfgs who list recommended specs (that should work for most people) and say to gp from there to your own personal preference. Maybe that's the case?

-Kevin
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather than guess or use hearsay for what the owner/designer/tester
had in mind maybe you should ask your questions directly.
bruce@sailworks.com. Bruce is a very approachable guy
(I could walk down to the Sailworks loft from my place and ask, but
again it would be hearsay). Bruce will give you a straight story,
no matter what your motivation is, but I'm sure that if it "can only
help sales", he'll give it all the consideration it is due.

I own several Sailworks Retros. You should buy a couple and experiment ;*)

-Craig


konajoe wrote:
I hear you. But when the author of the Sailworks guide is telling someone to use more downhaul than the maximum he recommends in his own tuning guide, I have a problem with that. Do a rigging guide rev.1, and let us mortals know what's going on. It obviously sails well like that for spennie, so put that bigger range in writing. It can only help sales.

I still can't see any references on relationship between weight and rigging. I would have guessed that smaller folks would be the ones who would benefit more from a heavily downhauled sail, since a 120lb person loads a 5.0 rig less than a 200lb person.

The Sailworks guide DOES mention that a tight leech pumps better than a loose leech. I suggested that was the case a few years ago, and was loudly booed.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1363

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From experience at our often offshore very gusty surf beach, where you cannot always be on the plane.

A tighter leech, which pumps more forcibly, is highly relevant in those conditions, hence preference for a size down underrigging, and a little less downhaul. (Using say a 90 litre board at my 170 lbs weight and 6'3" height.)

I find that it is easier to beat back in and cope with the surf when struggling off the plane to stay afloat - vigorous pumping needed.)

It is clear to see (observation) that heavyweights (we have a few) who need to rig bigger and over downhaul have greater difficulty beating back in while off the plane'

To that extent, being heavy makes a difference, to THEM. (Which may or may NOT apply to much better sailors!)
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1492

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't see why there would ever be a weight factor in rigging from the manufacturer. Three guys, one weighing 150, one 180 and one 210 all sail at the same time. Each guy has a different size sail all rigged to the manufacturers specifications to sail in the same conditions. I think that's what is expected. This assumes each sailor has a full quiver and can rig the proper size for the conditions.

However, if all three guys had the same size sail in the same conditions, then the 150 guy may rig with a loose leech, the 180 guy rigs to specs and the 210 guy rigs with a tight leech. These three guys may be novices or intermediates with limited quivers.

I modify rigging specs frequently if I think the wind is building or dying or if the next size up or down is too far off the existing conditions. However, the maximum performance from the sail will likely happen when the sail is rigged to specs as long as it isn't over or under powered.
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 177

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't clear about my heavy vs light 5.0 comparison. I was talking about 2 separate wind speeds. On a day when a 120 lb person is fully powered when rigged mid-spec, and another time when a 200 lb person is fully powered when rigged mid spec. If you took a picture of the two rigs while sailing they would look different, even though the rig looks exactly the same sitting on the beach.

Yes, I'll contact Sailworks. In the end, we'll all be better off if rigging guides get better/more complete.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14315

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya gotta define "fully powered". For some , it means being able to plane once each reach so they can execute a planing trick. For others, it means planing in the gusts and never being overpowered. For others it means planing in the lulls and RIPPING in the gusts. That range equates to a large range of sails -- such as 4.2 to 6.2 -- being enjoyed side by side by comparable sailors. How does a mfr put that in a rigging guide?
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