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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 183

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spennie wrote:
My rule is always downhaul to spec or beyond, then tune with outhaul, making sure you don't get too flat.


I'm really curious about this, Spennie. Why do manufacturers/designers put a max downhaul spec on their sails that is less than what would be beneficial to a sailor? Is it just marketing, to get a person to buy more sails?

Since downhaul is a way of de-powering a sail, do you find yourself needing a bigger sail than folks sailing with you. Exactly what is supposed to happen when you put too much downhaul on a sail?
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 183

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnl wrote:


I always start with the leach floppy down between the main top batons. This should match most manufacturers specs.

If it helps, most people who are working on rigging don't downhaul enough.


Not really, and not necessarily.

2014 windsurfing sail floppiness per specs range from those with no floppiness to those designed to be floppy to the booms. It's very easy to see what's right for your sail by following the instructions in the sail bag or online.

I see more sails with greater than recommended downhaul these days than with too little.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1413

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree Konajoe.

It's a 'willy waving thing' with some folk who rig too big for the wind strength, then downhaul the guts out of the sail to spill the excess just to be able to hang on to it.

I always feel it best to drop a size, and set the correct (intended) downhaul setting so that it will work at its best and sweetest efficiency.

Seems to work for me.
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spennie



Joined: 13 Oct 1995
Posts: 867
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe: Because you can get a greater range out of a given size, that's why. I also have adjustable outhauls on my 4 largest sails as well: 7.8, 7.1, 6.6, & 5.6. Since I'm 6'4" tall and 215 lbs., it takes a bit of "canvas" to get me going. A little extra downhaul makes a big sail more manageable. BTW, I'm talking about a centimeter, here, not two inches.

Go up to Windfest in the Gorge, Bruce Peterson usually gives a rigging demonstration there, you can argue downhaul with him, since that's where I get my information.

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www.WindJunkie.net
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 183

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spennie wrote:
Go up to Windfest in the Gorge, Bruce Peterson usually gives a rigging demonstration there, you can argue downhaul with him, since that's where I get my information.


Not arguing. Really curious. What is his association with Sailworks? Is he a team rider? Sail designer? Owner? If he's in a high position with Sailworks, and he's telling you to use more downhaul than the max in the manual, shouldn't he be telling all Sailworks customers? It seems pretty simple. Add an item to the Sailworks home page: 'Attn Retro owners: On the water testing has resulted in changes to the rigging guide....'.

Do you also use less than the recommended minimum downhaul to increase the range of your sails when the wind drops?
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1333
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings, Bruce is the owner, designer, and one of a couple of testers
(and team riders I guess you could call them) for Sailworks. I guess
you could say he's in a high position ;*) . I do not know about his on the ground rigging suggestions(you'll have to take that up with Spennie), but I do know his sails have great range.

-Craig

p.s. I often use less than the minimum recommended downhaul, on my
Northwaves and on my Sailworks sails if the wind goes light. They don't
perform particularly well in gusts, or overpowered like that, but they
seem pretty good for underpowered conditions.



konajoe wrote:
Not arguing. Really curious. What is his association with Sailworks? Is he a team rider? Sail designer? Owner? If he's in a high position with Sailworks, and he's telling you to use more downhaul than the max in the manual, shouldn't he be telling all Sailworks customers? It seems pretty simple. Add an item to the Sailworks home page: 'Attn Retro owners: On the water testing has resulted in changes to the rigging guide....'.

Do you also use less than the recommended minimum downhaul to increase the range of your sails when the wind drops?
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1195
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
johnl wrote:


I always start with the leach floppy down between the main top batons. This should match most manufacturers specs.

If it helps, most people who are working on rigging don't downhaul enough.


Not really, and not necessarily.

2014 windsurfing sail floppiness per specs range from those with no floppiness to those designed to be floppy to the booms. It's very easy to see what's right for your sail by following the instructions in the sail bag or online.

I see more sails with greater than recommended downhaul these days than with too little.


Hmm, you haven't heard of Bruce Peterson? I'm going to go out on a limb and say you have never sailed in the Gorge. An area KNOWN for it's gusty winds. Or maybe you misunderstood what a "floppy leach" is. I'm not talking about a sail that is so loose it looks like it going to fall apart (although that is what my 3.7 looked like today when it was STILL overpowered despite my 190 pounds). Maybe my wordage should have said "loose leach" although I would probably have to explain that as well.....

If you use a minimum amount of downhaul then the leach will be TIGHT the entire length of the leach. This is underdownhauled UNLESS you are going for that effect (such as it's the biggest sail you have and you are going to be underpowered on it so you are squeezing every ounce of power out of it).

The normal rigging would be the leach loosening up between the 2nd and 4th baton (I'm counting the very top one on the head of the sail as the first). I'm not talking about real loose, I'm saying it should not be TIGHT. That is a loose leach (maybe I shouldn't have used the word "floppy"). I can't count how many times I've seen sails with less than this in the Gorge and people are complaining about not being able to sail in the gusts. Duh!

Now in overpowered conditions (or laziness to re-rig) I'll put another inch of downhaul in it (such as today). This effectively reduces the size of the sail and spills a lot more wind. This is NOT what I was referring to as a loose leach. Maybe my wordage was incorrect...

Oh yeah, and to clarify, I don't usually over rig. Most people who know me think I under rig since I am usually a half meter or more below what they are rigging despite being the same size.....

One more point. If you are EVER in the gorge and are lucky enough to see Bruce Peterson and Dale Cook sail side by side on normal sails (not when they are slalom racing), it is truly impressive.....
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1413

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gusty conditions present rigging problems for sure! Our local beach is predominantly cross off, or dead offshore gusty blows, often combined with a long distance ground swell and surf.

The usual pattern is for the wind to increase during the day, but drop off quite rapidly later. It makes sail selection difficult, especially if trying to use low volume wave boards. (Most of avoid such - volume being your friend.)

You can either rig bigger (sail) for power in the lulls to avoid being dropped in, and welly on the downhaul to handle the gusts, or rig smaller (as I do) with minimal downhaul. consequently, when (sometimes if) the wind increases those who were max downhauled already are blown off the water, while those who rigged smaller still have downhaul in resrve, and can get properly lit up. The odds are in our favour.

One thing we all agree - we'd gladly settle for the marketing image of ideal conditions, which they'd have us believe are normal!
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1546

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting downhaul correct isn't always that easy. Knowing how to measure based on how the sail manufacturer specifies is critical. This also assumes that the mast is the correct length, Maybe a 460 mast is really 458, then your downhaul will be off two cm.

Maui Sails measures from the bottom of the mast (top of the extension collar) to the bottom of the pulleys on the sail. Your extension setting may or may not be correct since it is a guide, so correct measuring requires a tape measure and knowing what your sail manufacturer has specified to measure.

Plus, new sails may not need full downhaul until they stretch and break in a bit. Old sails may need a little more.
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spennie



Joined: 13 Oct 1995
Posts: 867
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe: Bruce Peterson is the owner & chief designer of Sailworks sails, and has many National Championships to his credit, including double wins in slalom & formula just a couple years ago. He sails his designs nearly every day in the gusty Gorge. He has been designing & building his sails for over 20 years, and in my opinion they are one of the best sails you can buy. His credentials are far beyond question! He's also well known as the nicest guy in the business, which definitely has my vote.

I have been sailing for 24 years, was a former Ambassador for Neilpryde sails, and switched to Sailworks after trying a couple about 6 or 7 years ago. I have helped dozens (hundreds?) of intermediate sailors enjoy the sport more by showing them how to rig properly, and have even given small clinics on occasion. Bruce trusted me to rig his demo sails for Windfest when I was in the Gorge for it, and didn't re-rig any of the sails I adjusted.

Bruce could explain to you how your sail is supposed to develop power near the boom, and the head of the sail is mostly for aerodynamics, doing the same job as those little vertical winglets on jetliners wing tips. Twist in sails has long been hailed as one of the greatest breakthroughs in windsurfing, making sails manageable in a much wider wind range. If you don't downhaul your sail enough, it will develop power in the head, making it handle poorly by pitching forward all the time. If you choose to rig your sails that way, fine, that's your choice, but don't try to proclaim it as the only way to rig.

My personal preference is to rig a little bigger than I could get away with so I'm never schlogging, and downhaul a little extra for better twist so I don't get slammed in the gusts. This makes my sails very smooth and easy to hold onto, even in rowdy, gusty conditions, which is why I recommend it to everyone.

BTW, it has nothing to do with being macho.

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www.WindJunkie.net
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