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dvCali
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1314
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 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| NOVAAN wrote: | | I'm wondering why you would want to be on a 6.6 if you can get going on a 4.7. Everyone talks about the wind range of cams or race sails. Wind range consist of low wind power as well as high wind control. To each their own. As for me, I want to be on the smallest sail I can that will get me going. Every thing is so much easier on that 4.7 compared to a 6.6 |
Because you are going 33--36 knots while they are doing mid twenties. And if the wind decreases they slog and you are still planing. I do a lot of b&j but recreational slalom sailing gives you a huge range of use: from marginal winds to twenty knots is something to experience .... |
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jingebritsen
Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3371
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:58 am Post subject: |
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OP was concerned about the leeward surface of the sail rubbing on the inside edge of the boom. if that's what it takes to stay powered, let it alone. big tell if one does not have enough out haul: if the clew wobbles up and down along the same axis as the mast, needs more.
under dynamic loads, if the leading edge of the sail collapses about a foot behind the boom cut out, AND the sail is either twitchy or gutless, too much out haul.
when race folks first started experimenting with adj outhauls, we learned that lots out haul works in much less app's than one would imagine on forums or paper. most important to have less out haul for off the wind app's than any other feature......
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| dvCali wrote: | | NOVAAN wrote: | | I'm wondering why you would want to be on a 6.6 if you can get going on a 4.7. |
Because you are going 33--36 knots while they are doing mid twenties. And if the wind decreases they slog and you are still planing. |
Bingo (at least on a draggy board), and BINGO. Plus ...
The low morning sun makes almost everyone rig WAY too small at some venues, as in 3.7s even for guys when it takes 6 meters to plane. Then as the wind picks up, that 6.something remains fun until it really IS time for a 4.7. And you know what they say ... Never Leave Fun to Find Fun. Fortunately, it doesn't require cams to do that ... just good sails ... so we can still choose cams vs no cams based on other considerations. |
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coachg
Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3550
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Iso’s,
You often talk about how important to you that extra 1 minute of sailing is that you would lose while rigging a cam sail. In the grand scheme of sailing that extra minute of rigging is insignificant, but to you it is huge.
A cam sail offers a few degrees upwind/downwind & maybe an extra knot over an RAF sail in recreational sailing which is insignificant in the grand scheme of sailing, but to a person who chooses cams it is huge.
So for you to understand why some people choose cams, walk a mile in their shoes. Think about how you feel about that extra minute and apply that to performance.
Done.
Coachg |
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GURGLETROUSERS
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Spot on Coach!
Out today in glorious summer heat, and lightish breeze, on Kona with twin cam 8.0 not much twist sail., but 'going places' with front foot only in strap, at a very nice pace.
Those who sail the Kona know, those who don't, don't! As for saving a minute or two rigging - pull the other one!!!  |
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cgoudie1
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2599
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Cams suck, I rig Retros (in large sizes).
-Craig |
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GURGLETROUSERS
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Depends what the aim may be.
If having to beat upwind on a longish journey, the twin cam (a modern one) definitely gives a pointing and stability edge, and would save considerably more than a couple of minutes.
(Though personally, I could spare the time - I mean, who couldn't!  ) |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| coachg wrote: | Iso’s,
You often talk about how important to you that extra 1 minute of sailing is that you would lose while rigging a cam sail. In the grand scheme of sailing that extra minute of rigging is insignificant, but to you it is huge.
A cam sail offers a few degrees upwind/downwind & maybe an extra knot over an RAF sail in recreational sailing which is insignificant in the grand scheme of sailing, but to a person who chooses cams it is huge.
So for you to understand why some people choose cams, walk a mile in their shoes. Think about how you feel about that extra minute and apply that to performance.
Done.
Coachg |
You misunderstand my purpose and motive. An extra minute is immaterial ... more of a joke than a real concern ... *IF* it's just a minute. My rigging concerns, as I've explained repeatedly, are the incredible hassles SOME cammed sails impose, especially older ones. I've also explained many times that the foremost downside of cams, once rigged, is reduced maneuverability. Many racers have said here what I've often characterized as "the primary advantage of cams is racing to upwind marks for big bucks". And better sailors than I have debated inconclusively right here whether cams offer other advantages. Who am I to argue with them?
My message is not whether or why anyone should or should not choose cams; that’s a personal choice and I don’t care what the next guy uses. My message is that they should choose based on facts and bona fide experts' opinions of the differences between cams and no cams in light of their own priorities. The following image and experiences of many of my recreational buds who were told, "Ya gotta use cams (and race or slalom boards)" was forever burned into my mind back when we were all at the same early experience level: they're chugging across the lake barely planing on their racy gear, as I blow by on my user-friendly gear. They couldn’t change directions quickly if their lives depended on it. Their board-flat pure race sails were smaller than my recreation sails because someone had told them race sails had more power. They fought flooded luff sleeves when waterstarting as the rest of us popped our RAFs out of the water and onto a plane. As a direct result, many of them quit WSing. And here was the bottom line: they had bought cams based on rumors, and at their skill level encountered all of their disadvantages and none of their advantages.
Cam and luff sleeve design have certainly improved, but so have camless sails. Just ask Bruce, Macke, and many other highly experienced sailors.
I bought my first RAF in 1984 from Spanier. For sails , < ~ 6.6m I have favored camless sails ever since based on their on-the-water performance pros and cons vs my priorities; their usual rigging simplicity is a bonus, not a primary priority. The exceptions were a few cammed sails that had testers screaming and throwing POS parts across the lawn and refusing to test them and a few that were almost impossible to clear once flooded; I trust and hope those days are long gone. |
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windoggi
Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2743
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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This windsurfing shit is SERIOUS.
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noshuzbluz
Joined: 18 May 2000
Posts: 791
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'd still be using my Sheldon single cam sails if they rigged on a skinny mast....
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