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Waist harness fit
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14171

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
But learning how to use a waist harness is definitely a worthwhile exercise ... A waist harness promotes a straight 7 stance

But who plays on waves/swell -- the purported purpose of a waist harness -- in a 7 stance?
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1945
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailing in essentially onshore swell (Gorge) conditions usually allows harness use in a broader range of sailing angles than in true breaking waves regardless of wind angle. IMHO, a waist harness offers several advantages over most seat harnesses for those using wave or wave-like boards.

First, less lower back compression with a waist harness compared to traditional seat harnesses. Wavy boards are unlike most other boards in that they don't easily settle into a floating/fast angle of attack compared to boards using flatter rockers as found on most slalom and freeride boards. Wavy boards also are designed and more often used in conditions offering much choppier conditions, and offer a slower ride overall as a result. All these factors contribute to more pounding and less even pressure on the fin when going straight. A waist harness offers less direct hip-connection between those pounding forces, whereas a seat harness naturally transmits force more directly to the hips and lower back. I compressed discs when using a low-hook seat harness when wave sailing a few decades ago, but feel no pain at all using a waist harness in high wind conditions.

Second, the seat harness's lower hook height and greater harness line tension makes unhooking a slightly longer or at least more precise affair compared to waist harnesses. It's far easier to unhook from a waist harness without drastically changing the pressure on the fin, and that's just what is needed when preparing to jibe, drop into a bottom turn or unhook mid jump when required.

The 7-stance isn't confined to waist harnesses by any means, nor is the stance limited to high wind or choppy/wavy conditions. Nearly all should try to emulate the 7-stance when planing on a shortboard, not only to keep the rig more vertical but to maximize power transfer regardless of harness type. Major exceptions to this ideal stance are longboard racing and speed sailing.

John I and I likely agree that not all seat harnesses transmit power the same way, and not all locate the bar at the same position. For example, the harness that seems to work best of the Kona One is the Kona Salsa that directs tension directly under the pelvis even though the hook height isn't super-low. Kona racers need massive mast base pressure to go upwind competitively in displacement mode, but that same harness locks me in too much when riding boards designed for wavy conditions. Conversely, using a waist harness on the Kona works adequately when planing upwind and pretty well planing downwind, but truly excels when on wavy boards and many slalom boards sailed in high wind. The waist harness also comparatively sucks when racing Formula since massive harness line forces and a direct connection to the fin are necessary.

Finally, I now sail with some sort of wetsuit top in all but very warm conditions, and my waist harness slips less in a wetsuit than on bare skin or a lycra rash guard. Just a 1mm vest does the trick.

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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 697

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm working thru this myself after just procuring a waisty.
This talk of straightening out the arms to get the 7 stance I'm not quite buying.
One tip I picked up from the Cribby CD is when trying to commit more to the harness to point the elbows down and hunch the shoulders forward, of course this is after one is powered up, settled in and one is really trying to weight the harness as much as possible. I found it helpful.
As for different waist harnesses, I tried on many and hung from them for a while but found little difference except for the Naish Moto which is so tall I felt some pressure down on my hips a bit, the height does not make it ride higher on the back but lower on the hips.
I'm curious what a 8" hook would do compared to the 10" I use on an XXL Dakine Tabu, bring the straps more around the front and keep it from sliding sideways a bit perhaps?
The Dakine t6 with sliding bar seems to essentially have about a 3" bar, who's using one of these?
In my mind it seems I'm just going to have to get used to the harness moving up and around from time to time and deal and adapt to it, hopefully this exercise will reinforce better technique and stance.
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 697

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try this, stand sideways in front of a mirror with your shirt off, place your left hand across your body on the right side of your lats and extend your right arm as if grabbing the boom, lean the torso back, notice that the lats shrink.
Now bend the elbows and point them down and hunch the torso forward, flared lats that help keep the waist harness from sliding up.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14171

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If any part of our torso is holding our harness down, our air cavity and ribcage are being restricted. No, thanks.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2388

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No advantage in the straight 7 stance.
There is NO rising or lowering of a waist harness if the harness lines come off your body at 90 degree angles.
As with anything else, any change requires an adaptation phase.
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 697

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After wearing the WH a few times now it's my observation that it must be worn loose, just loose enough that it doesn't constrict breathing when not hooked in. Of course this means when hooked in the spreader bar will be pulling away from the body quite a bit.
But just tight enough that it won't slide down when not hooked in.
Personally I just don't see it possible to wear it really cinched down tight as I'm gasping for air in short order.
Managing the power by leaning back at the waist and having the power transmitted thru the legs to the board, this is the essence of windsurfing, no?
This is what the WH necessitates and promotes while the SH allows one to just sit and drop your butt to control the power. I think if you have been windsurfing for 30 years like a lot of you it probably doesn't matter because your technique is probably nearly perfect or it works for you.
But for beginners and intermediates I would say the WH helps promote proper stance and response to the power of the sail.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14171

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beaglebuddy wrote:
Managing the power by leaning back at the waist and having the power transmitted thru the legs to the board, this is the essence of windsurfing, no?

Your answer is correct: No. For tens of thousands of us the essence is focused on maneuvering the board, which has little to do with that.
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 697

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that is what I'm getting at, for us intermediates and beginners the focus is on controlling the sail, for experts that comes second nature and you can focus on things like maneuvering the board.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14171

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beaglebuddy wrote:
Well that is what I'm getting at, for us intermediates and beginners the focus is on controlling the sail, for experts that comes second nature and you can focus on things like maneuvering the board.

My sail-handling skills, most notably my initial jibing breakthroughs, came only after improving my board-handling skills. Until I could maneuver my board through the 180-degree arc despite obstacles including bumps, upsetting gusts, operator errors, and maybe even fallen sailors, I was getting nowhere. It all has to play together.
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