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WindSUP: Sealion XL vs Exocet 10'0 / 10'2
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19377

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry about the long posts, Anton, but I empathize with your attempts to choose a board without a hands-on demo. I agree that Exocet, Starboard, etc. are doing themselves a huge disservice by ignoring the action video marketing approach AHD is employing. Who gives a crap about crisp, high-tech pictures of a board in a showroom?

While a real wave environment is certainly preferable, I'm still having a lot of fun carving up even the wind-driven swell we get in our river despite my newness with this giant board and strapless sailing and the fact that our swell isn't even that great yet because spring winds here are usually are of mediocre quality. Fortunately, big planing windSUPs, just like big sails, not only take much of the slog out of big holes in the wind but make bottomless holes much easier to slog in. On this porker I can slog with everybody else despite my balance problems.

I'm not about to try to optimize my sail choices just to go out and have fun, and wouldn't buy a unique quiver of sails just to play on one board anyway. My sails are light, responsive, camless, highly maneuverable, modern, extremely highly regarded by FAR better sailors than I'll ever be, quiet, have a high foot, and are designed for freeriding/B&J/carving in Gorge and Oregon coast conditions. Close enough, and bringing gear, the right wind, and me together for a test is usually a PITA. IF my COE or leech tension aren't perfect for this board on this day, I adjust ... adjust COE position, leech tension, boom height, harness line length, mast position, dynamic board trim, foot position, maybe even fin size, but most importantly my ATTITUDE. For me, this sport and this board are about fun ... not trophies, not big bucks, and sure as hell not about hassle.

I try to sail the same way whether I'm on my smallest kit (65 liters/3.2 sq m) or my biggest kit (135L/6.2m), so I don't need sails dedicated to any additional type of sailing. The only exception is a big 7.0 with great emphasis on low end planing power, specifically intended to extend my planing threshold into new (for me) wind lows on those summer days that blow mid teens (mph) all the danged day. They generate enough swell to play on, so I hope to use the SL's carving prowess even then.

As my skills and confidence sans straps increase, my sail sizes are increasing. Yesterday, for example, was fun and highly successful on a 4.7 when I'd normally choose a 4.7 anyway on small wave boards: averaging 25 to 30 mph with gusts into the mid 30s and holes of 20 or less. BTW, the hull never felt blown around even in the peak gusts + swell-tops. That was a surprise, but then I'm used to those conditions on smaller boards. My next step will be 4.2 or 3.7 when it's averaging 30 to low 30s. Baby steps, due to having no straps and having to learn very new skills. I'm also very pleasantly surprised at how well (relatively speaking) this 30" wide beast handles chop. Three reasons: I'm not going as fast as I would be on a small strapped wave board, I'm not in an especially choppy venue, and my expectations were lower.

Active wavesailing it definitely is. Even though our onshore conditions are not the same as side-off ocean DTL sailing, we can still pretend we're having a blast while covering up our extreme depression with huge grins we can't sand off our faces with a 15 amp grinder and a 50 grit disk. Woe is us, in that we actually think this is funner than crap! Footstraps, low volume, narrow/thin tails, and gobs of power can generate more sheer adrenaline and altitude when the wind and waves or swell are up, but working or merely finessing a bigger hull in less wind is also fun Ö especially when Mother Nature provides only the latter option. Jingerbritsenís videos of shredding waves in pitiful Florida breezes make it look like heís almost having FUN in wind that would have most Gorge sailors, windsurfers and kiters alike, sitting on shore and whining or drinking ... or all three.

Jingerbritsen's a master pumper (he's gotta be; he's big, his winds are usually modest, but he often has waves to play on even without wind.) I'm a crappy pumper, 'cause if I have swell but can't plane consistently, I just grab more fin, board, and/or sail. But even I can get this bigwide board planing very often in MUCH less wind than on my sinker wave boards, even if not very far when the swell is random, with every passing bump + a few extra ripples or cat's paws + one pump or three leech fans + a broad reach ooch.

The SL's range is multifaceted, probably tough to compare directly to significantly longer windSUPs. Its lower swing weight/polar moment of inertia matters (e.g., those snappy turns), but extracts a price when greater length shines ... whenever that is (paddling long distances in a hurry? Cruising from Point A to Point B? Mowing the lawn?) I donít do any of those without a gun (e.g. , a barge, near total darkness) to my head, so give me snappy any day. No reason for me to change my board selection criteria just because my windSUP is twice the volume of my primary Gorge boards until recently.

I suspect the SL's full-length rocker provided me an advantage yesterday when I got caught way upwind by a big sustained surge in the wind. On a strapped wave board, I'd have just slashed downwind, found the sweet point of sail between too much and not enough power, jammed my back foot into its strap for security, hooked in, and blasted home. Sans footstraps and warned by experts that running an SUP downwind in the Gorge requires ≥14 feet of hull to avoid pearling in every trough, I unhooked, crouched low as though in a tug of war (well, I WAS, wasn't I?), snapped downwind, and prepared for the worst (a splash, if not an outright splat).

Much ado about nothing. It was so easy that I just hooked in and enjoyed he ride, despite the gusty conditions. I'm gonna do more of that just for fun next time out. Sure, I'll probably get catapulted now and then, but it's not like my arches are in vises and I'm going at race speeds. On the contrary, my feet are loose and fancy free and I'm planing nicely at a speed I could outrun on dry land. (Hell, KITES pass me on this thing in beam reaches Ö so far.) This thing's more about giggles and grins than terror and terminal velocity. Even its catapults are Ö so far Ö rather gentle affairs (but then Iím used to catapults at much higher speeds, so maybe itís all relative).
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antonputman



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 129
Location: North Shore Italy

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@jingebritsen

Thanks for your thoughts. Finally I can get to you.
I will try to make it short because I wrote already too much realier.

I see you have the Exocet link in your footer, does that mean you have any affiliations with Exocet?
What Sealion model did you demo? What are you thoughts about the 150L XL model?

Interesting that you are saying that you prefer the "old" 10 footer over the new 10'2 model! It's about 25L they shaved of the nose right?
I have some more information about a guy in NZ with the 10'2 model in carbon.
He had an Exocet 10'3 Evo SUP before which he liked but didn't want to risk the board in 1-1.5m waves. He didn't like the volume in the nose of the 10'0 model and choose the new model. He says it's a fantastic board.

- need bigger sails in the 6-7m range (perfect for my freeride quiver)
- incredibly loose with the fin forward
- board does not flex (carbon model)
- planes early, handles waves very well in marginal winds
- top speed is right up there (push it in footstraps)
- does not slap on the water thanks to the reduced nose

So you are saying the 10'0 planes earlier and handles onshore better.
Why is that? because of the volume in the nose? Because of the daggerboard?
Are there still problems with the gasket like on the 11'8?

I think I remember people asking Exocet for a board without a dagger with less volume and in a lighter construction. It looks Exocet listens to their customers than right? I still would like to understand what is wrong with the new 10'2 model.
Have to tell that I do not like the aspect of the 10'0. Neither daggerboards..
But if you are saying that this board performs better I will reconsider.
I can get a slightly used 10'0 from XO sails for less than 1.000Ä

btw Can you tell me something about the differences in constructions?
AST/ Wood/ Carbon? There seems to be a 1kg difference between constructions?
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3320

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i first started pushing the boundaries of my windsurfing in the surf by using large free ride boards about 15 years ago.

then the kona one came along. it allowed a broader range of surf sailing into 3-8 mph winds.

then the 11' 5" was made. it was lighter and had a wave board fin box and no dagger. it needed 5-10 because of no dagger. look at my limited pics on FB https://www.facebook.com/john.ingebritsen

then the windSUP 11'8" was introduced. it needs even less wind than the kona one? what it can do: grab waves way off the wind, way out on the shoulder. sail lit up, planing. in other words in performance for a huge range of conditions and applications it is hard to do better. cost? it's a ship. it weighs lots. turns at planing speeds with lots of body english.

the 10 footer came along and was pretty much another 11'5, yet shorter and a bit heavier.

at this point, my favorite of them all is the carbon 11'5.

very high expectations for the 10'2"

compared to a surf style SUP the 10'2" is an improvement. compared to the tens of thousands of wave rides i've gotten on the above exocets, it is too rockered out. it plods onto a plane. won't glide thru in the lulls, and has pretty shiddy upwind performance (tried 8 different fins) which is required to do aerial off the lips, backside. is it better than a strapless SUP with a banana rocker? yes. does it plane worth a fugg? no. side off, i would love it. i don't get enough of that to justify cluttering up my life with another board.

your initial description of your venue reminded me of mine, yet i think i may have more open beaches with cape canaveral and alll...

the sealion i tried was years ago and it was not the path i have followed since. i doubt there's anything there that is that much different. all the proponents of it have access to side off conditions.

_________________
www.aerotechsails.com
www.exocet-original.com
www.iwindsurf.com
http://www.epicgearusa.com/
http://www.seanski.com/
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3320

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

one last thing. the 10'2" and later versions of the 11'5" had trifins. they were not applicable to me. i do not have jagged fast waves very often. i think i may have spun out a bottom turn twice in my life and it was in gales, not long board wave sessions.

this preoccupation with multifins is yet another distraction.....

_________________
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antonputman



Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 129
Location: North Shore Italy

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you John for your thoughts.

Can you confirm I can use my X-Type freeride sails? 5.6, 6.6, 7.8
What about the daggerboard, does it have the gasket and water shooting problems?

So I learned the 10'0 is a better performer for my onshore conditions at my homespot, actually it's the only option.
I CAN get access to side-off conditions in the winter but I am going to have to travel for it - something I do anyway for wave SUP-ing with my GF.

Now I just have to decide if it's worth giving up the idea to get my feet wet into a more freestyle and wave orientated concept the Sealion offers.
The question is: Will it make me a better windsurfer to try something new?
Or would I become a better windsurfer increasing sessions at my homespot in a longboard / freeride style like I am more or less already doing?


the verdict for Exocet:

++ planes early in wide range of conditions, also onshore
+ use my (bigger) freeride sails
-- length and weight
- same concept than my current SUP, only performs better
- crap daggerboard in 10'0
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19377

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

antonputtemans wrote:
The question is: Will it make me a better windsurfer to try something new?

Regardless of what "new" turns out to be, I'd say, "Yes". Many folks suggested that I just get a big FSW board, but ... a) I have one for emergencies, b) it still has straps, c) it's not gong to SUP, and d) it's just a big version of what I normally sail, not something very different and with a new learning curve.
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3320

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

on my 11'8 i have my dagger gasket sewn shut. i have used glue and gorilla tape as a short term measure prior to sewing it. gorilla glue on the leading edge, gorilla tape to tape it closed. worked just about as well.

sea lions stink in onshore. doubt they have many foot strap options.

with all the extra sessions and waves on my PLANING longboards, i believe my skills are better from it. planing tacks in particular.

_________________
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www.iwindsurf.com
http://www.epicgearusa.com/
http://www.seanski.com/
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19377

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jingebritsen wrote:
sea lions stink in onshore. doubt they have many foot strap options.

Damn! And here I thought I was having fun in onshore. People watching me said I was, and I'm still a novice with it. Of all my boards, this is the only one that cranks a hard turn onto a plane, rather than just burying the rail, when I mash on a rail or tail at slow slogging speeds just as I crest a bump and fan the leech. It's sort of neat getting all but the very last few inches of the tail well out of the water at will on even the slightest hump even when barely planing ... even when NOT planing if I lift the nose off a crest and set it down pointed well off the wind and down a thigh-high bump; add a quick leech snap and it's planing. All that rocker is a new tool for me.

SLs have zero strap options. Their U.S. importer laughs (usually silently) when people ask about adding strap inserts. The whole point is to learn to use skill and finesse, rather than predetermined, mandated foot placement anchors, to maneuver the board. I've already walked all over more than a dozen square feet of padded deck in the process of waterstarting and sailing it, and I haven't even tried tacking it or any freestyle yet.

So many options, so little time.

BTW ... maybe you should offer to teach Andy Brandt how to do those planing tacks.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9517

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Damn! And here I thought I was having fun in onshore."


Actually, virtually all Gorge sailing is sideshore wind from the launch points. Much different than direct onshore wind conditions on the coast, particularly when breaking waves are present. In communicating with and helping others, it's important keep things in the proper perspective.
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3320

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

do that kinda stuff in the surf with onshore sailing and you will be walking home for a very long distance every time you grab a wave. people that sail onshore need upwind power.

onshore currents typically are like easterlies mr fick. but at least the swell/surf is a lot more substantial than an east gorge day, right?

your perspective from the gorge should not be applied to many other venues. just like hookipa should not be projected to onshore ugly stuff either.

_________________
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www.exocet-original.com
www.iwindsurf.com
http://www.epicgearusa.com/
http://www.seanski.com/
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