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Is This Rig Useable?
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigwave65 wrote:
G-Just because some of us choose to answer the question of "is this rig usable" by stating in a sentence or two that it is not usable instead of writing a novel fawning about how great & superior it is, doesn't make my/our opinion any less important (or wrong) than yours. I am answering the question that was asked & saying it isn't, simple as that. You're saying it is, 2 different views, 1 is just in Cliff note fashion!


Bigwave, This isn't necessarily just to you, but to others as well... anyway, your comment above, made me think of this -

I think a real problem with on-line forums like this, is... our sport is a very complex one with a million variables. People all over the US and the world... go windsurfing, tons of different ways. You do NOT know what's important to all windsurfer's and neither do I.
Also, our sport is complex to learn and build skills to sail in the typical conditions wherever someone lives (that you and I also don't know about). And then, they also learn about all the gear, and how to take care of it, etc.
iWindurf is great a resource... and since there aren't windsurfing shops around everywhere, like there were between '85 and '95... iW "is" the only source of info for some people.
So, what we say... can be important.

I've been teaching windsurfing for a long time. And there isn't "one simple answer" for most all students regarding any aspect of this sport.
It takes a conversation. And then after you know what their goals are... and what conditions they're going to sail in... and what their athletic background is... and their physical size... and their budget... Yes, then you can give "one word answers to any question that comes up".

I sailed on a lake for 5 hours today, with winds from 5 to 25 (mostly 13 - 20) with 7 other guys. One other is an instructor... 3 others have been sailing almost as long as me and were enjoying the rare windy day (for us). But 2 of the guys have only been sailing a year. These two have a million questions for all us experienced guys, every time we're at the beach. But... we know them and all the pertinent info that I mentioned above. So yeah, I only give one sentence answers to them.

The guy who started this thread, asked a reasonable question. But we didn't know much about him, until after several answers to his question had already been given. He sounds like a motivated guy who's enthusiastic for windsurfing. Great !!!
And he made some real effort to take pics and upload them... and he asks a sincere question.

If people on this forum want to help and inspire other new sailors... if they want to help grow windsurfing. We shouldn't give one sentence answers until we know a lot more details.
If you don't have time... then don't respond... and that's fine.
Or if you feel strongly about something, but don't have time... then word you answer in the context of what "you would do, and why that would work in YOUR situation". THAT would be quick for you... and give the author some helpful info.

His thread title is, "Is this rig useable". I answered with more than "cliff notes" but less than "a novel" on the first page Smile
When you have time, please read that and tell me what part of that, is not true?
Other people simply said, "no, that rig is not useable".
People didn't say WHO the rig isn't useful for. The just made a black and white statement, implying that it isn't useable by anybody.

IMO - If people don't have time to post a helpful email to the author, they shouldn't waste their time at all. And none of us can give a helpful answer, until you know much more about the author.
But for those who feel the need... how about just adding one more sentence, that... "this is your answer" as it pertains to you !!!

You might've said, "To the original poster, you're asking if this rig is useable? Well, I don't know anything about you and your windsurfing situation. But to me, the answer is No - this rig has no use. And it's because I've been windsurfing for 15 years, and I sail shortboards in hi winds.
Or... maybe you've gotten into wave sailing. Or, all you want to practice now is freestyle. Or, your an avid raceboard sailor... and you need big sails... etc.

However to simply say, "No, that rig is not useable"... is just not your opinion vs. my opinion. It's totally un-true!
It's ONLY un-useable for some people in some situations. But when windsurfing was the MOST POPULAR, from '85 to '95... thousands of people all around the world would've found that rig VERY useful.
And for those that still sail in light to marginal winds, this rig has some value... especially if you already have it !!!

And, as the author later said... he already has this rig. He isn't out shopping, between this rig and another. It's already his. And he said, he won't have $ for anything else for a while.

So - What is wrong with my original answer. It's not "fawning over this rig saying it's superior". It's very realistic and practical. It gives pros and cons... and that's even before we knew more about the author's situation.

Lastly, my take away point is - If people only have time for a two sentence answer.. please add one more sentence about, this is what you'd do and why... for yourself.
Please don't give short black and white advice about our "very diverse sport: to people you don't know a thing about.

IMO - We would help really educate many more people that way.
My 2 cents (or, actually... $1.02 Smile
Greg -
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Bigwave65



Joined: 12 Oct 2010
Posts: 32
Location: Lake Erie

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just skipped thru what you wrote but here is what I summarized from it:
-you don't like me much
-writing more makes you more correct
-you always ride 'yesterday' and when you do you're the best

I also rode yesterday on my 2013 5.5 Ezzy Tiger & my 2012 RRD wave quad 92ltr- I can't lie, I was killing it!

Let it go, this thread has somehow become all about you. Back on topic~ I don't believe, IMO, that rig is usable.
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigwave65 wrote:
I just skipped thru what you wrote but here is what I summarized from it:
-you don't like me much
-writing more makes you more correct
-you always ride 'yesterday' and when you do you're the best

I also rode yesterday on my 2013 5.5 Ezzy Tiger & my 2012 RRD wave quad 92ltr- I can't lie, I was killing it!

Let it go, this thread has somehow become all about you. Back on topic~ I don't believe, IMO, that rig is usable.


Wow... no... I did NOT say any of those things. Sorry you took it that way, but my post doesn't say or imply "that" anywhere.

* Most newbies have a thirst for information.
* But they know it's complicated, so they want it explained.
* This sport has lots of "gray areas", unless you know the person and their situation well, nobody can give 3 sentence answers that are helpful.
* Newbies want to be educated, given pros and cons. They are smart, and will make up their own mind.
* Yes, like you, I have better things to do... buy once in a while I'll put the time out to encourage or give perspective about our cool sport.
* Veterans who don't have the patience, or aren't interested in that, shouldn't waste their time even reading this stuff. It's NOT for them, it's for the new guy !!
* And, I'm sure we'd be fine sailing buds... nobody really knows much about someone... just reading stuff online. And I certainly like most all windsurfer's I've met.
Greg Smile
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waitinSD



Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did gregnw take the same bloviated writing course isotard did? I feel sorry for his poor students.
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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 337

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW!!! This stuff is fun.
Bottom line, is the rig useable? Yes.
Is the rig very good? NO... If you already have it, use it.
If your thinking about buying it, don't
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14470

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waitinSD wrote:
Did gregnw take the same bloviated writing course isotard did? I feel sorry for his poor students.

Greg's students are well educated, thanks to his thoroughness. The students who got fed up with, and thus ignored, his insightful and thoughtful answers because they wouldn't fit in a Tweet will be clueless the minute they encounter some problem too big for 140 characters. His posts on this page are dead right IMO, and I feel sorry for the twits growing up dependent on tweets instead of real communication and for the decline in civilization (and apparently civility) they will produce.

I didn’t realize until I watched some legacy (ABCCBSNBCBSNBCCNNetc) news reports on the Ukraine, Benghazi, riots in Europe, etc. how COMPLETELY dumbed down they have become to appeal to the Sound Bite (aka ADD-impaired) generation who … get this … WATCH TELEVISI0N ON THEIR SMART PHONES with the attention span of a three-month-old puppy. “OOPS! Got a tweet/message/email/fart coming in; gotta go now.” The average time between such interruptions for millions of people is 15 seconds, and those news media sacrifice useful information to fit their “news” stories into those 15 seconds. No WONDER so few people under 40 have a clue what’s going on in the world or understand why windsurfing questions merit conversations beyond 15 seconds or 140 characters.

Gotta go now. Got a book I want to read this afternoon that will help change my whole life for the better.

The ADD crowd probably think that’s a joke.

Back to the original question, "can I go fast on this sail?", though ... er ... no. Not relative to anyone on anything built in the last 20 years and/or rigged MUCH better. But the sail is very usable for putzing around in light breezes to and marginal planing conditions or for land sailing.
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waitinSD



Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey isoblah blah blah
Thanks for providing a fairly demented example of bloviating. As I've said before, it's sad when they get like this, but still sometimes fun to watch. Please add me to your imaginary kill list.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14470

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waitinSD wrote:
add me to your imaginary kill list.

Sorry. Don't have an imaginary version. You're putting WAY too much faith in the deniers.
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jandrew7



Joined: 14 Aug 2013
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregnw44 wrote:
jandrew7 - Thanks for the added answers about you, your gear, and your sailing goals and conditions.

That Bic Veloce you have is from between 1995 and 1999 I think.
If I recall they made them in different sizes... maybe 282cm and 290cm... or something like that.
I think the specs are on the label between the mast-track and the front footstraps.
What's the volume of your board?
It will be on the label... it's in "Liters" (L) of displacement. Or it might just say Vol.
Anyway, since you're only about 150lbs... I'm sure you can uphaul that board with practice (in flat water).
Is that what you've been doing?
But... can you also waterstart out in the lake on a windy day?

And you say, typical winds are about 10 - 15... but you've seen 5 and also as high as 35mph winds.
Depending on that board's vol. even at your weight of 150... you're not going to be doing much sailing in 5 mph winds. And, for sure... due to your novice - intermediate skills so far... you're not going out in 35, or even 25 mph winds.
I'll take a guess, that "when you get the skills" that board will work for a guy your size in winds from 10 to 25... but be the most fun in 15 - 20 mph stuff.
I saw earlier that you had a post wanting to buy a newer 6M sail (or bigger, I think)... but I can't find it now.
Anyway, I agree a newer big sail is a fine idea. But you'll for sure want bigger than a 6M. And that's cause you said you already have a 5.8 about the same age as the board, (so that's late 90's).
If I were you, I'd look for a newer sail in the 6.8 to 7.4 size. That would be a nice size, to jump to from your 5.8M sail.
And you could use that 7-ish size sail in wind's from 10 - 20 (or high teens). And you'd use your 5.8 from high teens to maybe 25.

You started all this off by saying you want to go faster. Believe me, you'll be going very fast with that board and 5.8 in 20 - 25 mph wind.
And when you get really good at handling your 7-ish sail in the moderate range 10 - 20. You might want to get a new-ish 8.5 for the 10 - 15 stuff. At your weight, you will go pretty fast on that board with a modern 8.5 in 15 mph winds !!

And (back to frugal Greg Smile since you already have the late 90's 5.8 for higher winds. And you already have, the late 80's or 1990 6.8 NPU sail... you "could" stay with that for a while. The NPU is one generation older sail, than your 5.8. Therefore it is a powerful sail for it's 6.8 size. And since you're kinda light... that 6.8 will power you around nicely on the big shortboard. I'd say, it'll get you around fine in 10 mph breezes... and be very fun in 12 - 16 (you'll be planning). But at your weight and inexperience... it will be a bear for you, above 17 mph (approx.)

Or save up and shop for a newer 7.2 - 7.4 to get "almost the same" low end power as your 6.8M sail. But they will be faster and easier to sail in 17 - 20 mph winds for you.

Good luck, Greg Smile




Hey Greg and company, What do you think of this as a better option for me? I have been speaking with the guy selling it. Its a 7.1, 1996 Neil Pryde Prorotype.



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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jandrew7 -
LOL... you know... you're just gonna get people pissed-off at me Smile

Ok, this is just to you... the aspiring intermediate... looking to gain knowledge, info and perspective !!
Experienced wave sailors... and, people who believe you're "an idiot" if you don't buy new sails every 3 years... should just move on to the next thread. There's nothing interesting going on here.
(BTW - I have lots of friends "who do buy" new sails constantly... and I think they're great. And they think I'm great, even though I sail a mix of old and new sails. And we're not condescending or sarcastic with each other, unless it's over beers after a great sailing day, and then it's all in fun between friends who know each other well Smile

jandrew7, This '96 Neil Pryde 7.1M sail is a whole generation newer design than your other sail, the '89 NPU 6.8M sail.
It's going to weigh a little more than your 6.8 because it has more battens (but it still weighs MUCH LESS than a newer high tension 7.1).
The small additional weight, probably won't be noticed by you while uphauling or water-starting.

For you... and what you've told me about your size, experience, sailing location, goals, and your other gear... I think this sail would be better.
Performance wise, it will be more stable, in higher winds... and it will go faster, much more easily. But still, it's not as stable as newer sails in high winds. However, you don't really need that, since you already have a 5.8 for more wind. This 7.1 would work great for a guy your weight and with that board you already have. It is a nice step up in performance from the older 6.8M sail.
(BTW - If you were a guy sailing a longboard or wind-SUP, in winds from 2 - 10 mph... I'd still suggest the older 6.8, cause it's lighter and has more low end power. But, that's not you Smile

Yeah, good find on this newer 7.1 - I don't know how much more it is, than the 6.8 you already have... but it shouldn't be very much more, at all.
And my guess is that it'll rig on the same mast and boom you already have for the 6.8... luff and boom length dimensions will be within 6" & 3" of each other respectively (I think).

Keep the stoke going !!
Have fun, Greg Smile
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