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The pope on income re-distribution
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14322

PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanWeiss wrote:
Giving to a house of worship is an expression of faith and an action that supports the very nature of worshiping in groups of likeminded individuals. ... I wonder what those who reject tithing yet attend church regularly believe funds the operation.

Once again, Mr. Fick shows us an example of how not to approach complex topics.

Just the opposite; I merely asked a question about the church's sources of income. I don't care enough about it to research it or examine it in depth.

I naively thought, way back then, that tithing was as you say and imply: a voluntary expression of faith and support. That ... along with my respect*, attendance, and tithing ... ended the day my new Methodist minister informed me I WILL tithe 10%, that any other legal or moral debts don't count until he has my 10%. He had even found out my classified salary -- a figure even my boss did not know -- 50 years before the NSA spying crap hit the fan.

I don't reject tithing; everyone here can see that accusation is a lie. What I reject in this issue includes his spying and unauthorized decrees.

* That loss of respect for at least the Catholic church was reinforced when my Catholic friend and neighbor casually informed me I was going to hell simply because I'm not Catholic. ([clarification] Don't bother claiming that is never taught in any Catholic congregation; many Catholics tell me they are taught that.) It in no way affected our friendship; it's just part of the BS many churches feed their congregations so I don't take it personally. His sister, however, cast him aside when he told her the same thing.


Last edited by isobars on Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5371

PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How bias and misinformation can help close a mind to anything but Fox news:

Quote:
* That loss of respect for at least the Catholic church was reinforced when my Catholic friend and neighbor casually informed me I was going to hell simply because I'm not Catholic. (Don't bother denying that is not taught in any Catholic congregation; many Catholics tell me they are taught that.) It in no way affected our friendship; it's just part of the BS many churches feed their congregations so I don't take it personally. His sister, however, cast him aside when he told her the same thing.


Mikey is sort of right--about the Catholic church nearly 60 years ago when I was in second or third grade studying theology. Catholics at the time believed, not that non-Catholics would go to hell, but that the highest levels of heaven were reserved for those Catholics who led the most exemplary lives. There was far more to it than that, including what would be the fate of babies who had never sinned but had died un-baptized. A lot of silly stuff--but nothing as rigid as the beliefs of most evangelical churches. My evangelical brother tried to convert my dad, who led a pretty devout life as a convert to Catholicism, because he was convinced he would go to hell if he didn't embrace my brother's particularly wacky form of charismatic christianity. There is a lot of stuff like magic underpants out there.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 1003

PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps you should do a little research into the movement away from "legalism" and why the many Evangelical churches have moved away from all the non-biblical and man-made rules that are distortions of scripture.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 1003

PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isobars,

Did you read that link I provided? If you have had an understandably negative experience regarding someone's imposed take on tithing the link provides some great insight into the purpose and the history behind the tithe.

I sure learned some things I never understood before.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14322

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Read"? No. "Glance at"? Yes. Again, I have nothing against tithing. I've simply lost interest in religion and still resent a voluntary institution trying to tell me my legal and moral monetary debts don't matter, that I should just pull cash I don't have out of my butt, give it to him, and the hell with paying income taxes, credit card debt*, student loans, rent, food, etc. on schedule.

* I had supported myself and my alcoholic father on my credit cards during my last year or so of full time school. All that kept my creditors from closing me down were the letters I had written to every one of them explaining that I was transitioning from a penniless student to a well-paid engineer (we were in limitless demand then) with a prestigious company on Nov 15 and would resume payments on a specific schedule then. This minister and his church were essentially decreeing that neither my debts nor my word mattered to them.

"Well, guy, then you and your church don't matter to me."

Similarly, I cut way back on my charity donations when the Great Entitleor began his aggressive program to get 51% of the voters on the dole at any cost, ADMITTING FROM THE DEBATE PLATFORM TO ABC AND THE WORLD that it was for no other excuse than "fairness" ... WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION ... "even though it will harm the economy".

Since his subsequent election, my only charities are the Wounded Warriors and the Humane Society. That isn't likely to change until we get an administration back in office who understands the concepts of self reliance and fiscal responsibility, especially as applied to restricting wealth redistribution to those who NEED it due to circumstances beyond their control (if they've EARNED or BOUGHT it, it's not wealth redistribution), not to every swinging voter who just WANTS it and makes sure he earns less than $80,000 a year to keep the gifts coming. I still seethe at the lamestream news story sympathetic to the guy demanding a federal bailout because his $1M mortgage was upside down. "Of COURSE I could pay it off -- my liquid investments run well into seven figures -- but why should I have to use MY money to pay off my upside down mortgage?" AND THE ANCHOR WAS ON HIS SIDE.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3463

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I grew up among people of faith. I don't attend evangelical churches any more because of the many distortions of scripture among the pastors.
My family moved around a lot so I attended dozens of different churches.
Each pastor told us something different and I was punished in Sunday School for pointing that out, or supporting a belief that I learned in another evangelical church.

Some say the Bible forbids dancing or singing except in church.
Some say that the Bible demands church be on Sat instead.
There is a very long list of such interpretations of Scripture that make limited sense.
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reinerehlers



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 1003

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"some say" is the root of the problem then? If so, I agree! I can say I've shared in this experience. I once attended a very rigid and legalistic church but left in disgust of the non scriptural distortions. Unfortunately the pastor later went on to have an affair with a friend's wife and later committed suicide. He could not even live up to his own rules.

A great resource on such matters is Tim Keller. He has hours of video on YouTube. Lots of debate betwenn atheists and himself. Even if you don't believe he does do an outstanding job of addressing the many misunderstandings and stereotypes.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14322

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's none of my business or concern what atheists believe; it's their attempts to tell the rest of us how to live our lives that should piss off those of us who don't enjoy having others run our daily lives.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5371

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pliny seems to agree with the Pope:

Quote:
The lust of avarice as so totally seized upon mankind that their wealth seems rather to possess them than they possess their wealth.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3463

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This interests me RR.
What is a legalistic church?
What do you mean by "some say is the problem"?
The problem for me was the huge range of interpretation of Scriptures, combined with absolute certainty every word in the Bible was true.
They meant ," every interpretation we make of the Bible is true.
The evangelist church across the street has it wrong"
Is a legalistic church one of those across the street?
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