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Why We Should All Fear Government
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You live in a segregated community?"


In a way yes, because you have to be 55 or older. Is there any other form of segregation, like racial, religious or gender requirements? No.

Regarding your other comments, I think that you missed an important point. The owner of the property contracted the paving company, and I didn't have any say or choice in the matter. The private company that did the work, JB Bostick Co., is a reputable paving contractor in California.

Maybe it would surprise you up in Canada, but most of the workers used in the construction industry in California these days are Hispanics. Are they legal or illegal? Who knows? However, I would bet that all their employees are paying FICA, Medicare and federal and state income taxes. Bottom line, JB Bostick is too big of a business to be running south of the law.

In closing, I will say this. As part of the paving effort, I was able to negotiate a re-paved driveway for my spot at no charge. Although the road in front of my spot was in very good shape, the driveway wasn't. It was very compromised by tree roots, and by funky shortcuts taken in earlier re-paving work done many years ago. Overall, I guess you can say that I was able obtain some extra benefit from the situation, but I had to work for it.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So do the gates keep older people in or "others" out? If the answer is "out" then who are those people they want to keep out? Is there segregation like social or financial implemented or implied by that gate? There was a community I looked into when my children were young that advertised as "an adult lifestyle community", when I went into the sales office with my young children they were quick to let me know it was actually a seniors community. That's just plain old prejudice in my books, and no different than if they told me it was for "whites" only - AKA segregation.

The owner of the property contracted the paving company and you had no say but negotiated your own little perk in the deal. That sounds odd, you had no say but had enough of a say to work that out. You had to work for the perk, how's that? Did you clean their trucks or do their taxes in return? The last time I did something for someone who had "no say" was, let me see, never.

In reading the company's bio. it sounds like they're straight shooters and give incentives to their employees. How about if a local union shows up mid-job and shuts it all down demanding the job and impedes access to your gated community. Would you have an issue with that union's tactics? The exact thing happened with my builder friend despite the fact he was paying over union rate for his current masonry contractor and his labourer was making big perks for doing extra things. His labourer took a $30K pay cut because of the union's demands.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking to turn over a lot of rocks today?

The gate serves to limit folks that want to use the property as a shortcut, but it also works to ensure reasonable security because you need the code or authorization to enter. That said, anyone can enter the property if they have the code or authorization to enter. Many have gardeners, construction work going on or deliveries, so many folks can come and go.

You may not like communities with age requirements, and that's your choice, but it makes a big difference in the quality of life. As you get older in life, you might feel a lot different about things. For now, it's not illegal.

With regard to the paving job, my negotiation was with the owner and management of the property. I found out that some driveway repairs were being included in the grinding and paving effort, and I was able to convince them that my driveway needed to be done. Pretty simple really, and not at all like you suggest.

Again, to make things clear for you, I had no choice in the decision to ground and re-paved the roads on the property, and I was obligated to pay my fair share of the effort whether I liked it or not. What I got extra was reasonable, otherwise I wouldn't have happened.

Lastly, regarding unions, I think that I've been clear in the past that I'm not a strong supporter of unions. And, as I've mentioned before, I would have never worked for one. I know that hard for those on the right to understand that not all liberals are 100% aligned with unions, but it's true.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:

You may not like communities with age requirements, and that's your choice, but it makes a big difference in the quality of life. As you get older in life, you might feel a lot different about things. For now, it's not illegal.


Cool! Tomorrow I'm going to advertise for a position with my company. The ad. will read "older people need not apply". If you were still younger like me you would probably feel a lot different. After all, who wants to deal with older people and all their health problems and such? Why is it that would be wrong?

BTW,
There is only one gated seniors community north of Toronto that I know about. I worked in that community, and to be honest I'd live there no problem and with clear conscience too. I'm just yanking your chain. I stay at such a place when I go to Florida. I find it creates a sense of community where people look out for one another, plus it's cool having a community pool, gym and activity center steps away.

I don't think those righties would have a problem with your position on unions, they would tend to agree, would they not? I would think the lefties might have a problem with you not being behind unions and their demanded entitlements.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not against unions. Just not a big supporter, because I don't always agree with their positions or methods.

Without a doubt though, unions had much to do with the growth of the middle class in America, and collective bargaining made it all happen. Sharing the wealth with workers made good sense. The way that I look at it, maybe unions need to modernize a bit.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you on unions. I have a huuuuugggggeeee problem with their methods. They are outright breaking the law and imposing on people's basic rights to achieve their objectives (just like a certain cattle rancher), but somehow they get a free pass. The left seems to have no problem supporting that sort of nonsense.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sw said:
Quote:
Maybe it would surprise you up in Canada, but most of the workers used in the construction industry in California these days are Hispanics. Are they legal or illegal? Who knows? However, I would bet that all their employees are paying FICA, Medicare and federal and state income taxes. Bottom line, JB Bostick is too big of a business to be running south of the law.


If the workers are paying into FICA, etc, then they must have SS numbers, so either they are citizens or they have fake SS cards. I would guess that they are paid under the table at minimum wage or less. Either that or the employer doesn't do any SS background checks, so I doubt that JB Bostick is operating above board. Pretty common nation wide. Currently, the government seems to be ignoring these types of issues.
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pointster



Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 376

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers wrote:
I agree with you on unions. I have a huuuuugggggeeee problem with their methods. They are outright breaking the law and imposing on people's basic rights to achieve their objectives (just like a certain cattle rancher), but somehow they get a free pass. The left seems to have no problem supporting that sort of nonsense.


I would like to know what evidence you have of unions using illegal methods, and what information you have as to how widespread those practices are.

I have been a member of the United Autoworkers of America and The Communications Workers of America, and never saw, or even heard of any illegal activities. I was an active member, and the union officials I knew were very aware of their legal responsibilities, and the scrutiny they are under.

Unions are human organizations, and thus subject to human error and folly. However, I don't feel your blanket statement about lawbreaking is justified. And I think rather than imposing on people's rights, they have been, and continue to be, champions of human rights and dignity.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900,

You have a knack for looking at the presumed underbelly of things when it comes down to certain topics.

First, let me say that no knowledge of accounting details of JB Bostick Co., or their adherence to legal hiring practices, but I did have the opportunity to watch what happened over the different phases of the project.

The idea that their workers are paid minimum wage or less is more your fabricated opinion than reality. It was clear to me that their employees were experienced people in their trade. If a company needs to get things done right at a profit and create customer satisfaction as a result of their efforts, you can't pay your workers dirt wages. Hispanics might work for less than similarly qualified white guys, but not all white guys make top wages either. I'm sure that you're aware that women tend to make less than similarly qualified men, so we all know that everything is not always equal.

Is the government ignoring the fact that we have millions of illegal aliens working in America? Where have you been? The real issue is that some Americans are quite willing to hire illegal immigrants, and that's a huge problem. We need immigration reform badly, but who are the folks blocking all efforts to get the job done? Republicans, and corporate and business interests that support them. The ruse about weak border security is just Republican BS. I'm thinking that you need to get a clue about what's going on, and learn more about the folks that are impeding progress on our immigration problem.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you asked and to give you a bit of background. I have been a member of two unions as a framing carpenter and as an electrician.

As an electrician I experienced and witnessed illegal acts by not only fellow members, but also by shop stewards and union management. The shop stewards and union management perpetuated such activity by condoning such practices.

A specific example of such and act is witnessing a work associate constantly stealing materials from the job site. I brought this to my foreman's attention and we both approached the shop steward and the thief to address the issue. The thief only received a warning, despite me witnessing the act. They could not fire him because there was not enough evidence ( he didn't have the materials with him), and well, good luck firing someone in a union. The shop steward, on the other hand, took it upon himself to tell me to "mind my own F-ing business" and therefore condoned and encouraged the activity to continue, which it did, since now it was made apparent that there would be no repercussions to the crime.

Same job, almost a year later, I had injured myself playing volleyball when my friend landed with his knee on the back of my calf. My leg was black, blue, and green from my ankle to my crotch, regardless of my condition I needed to work to pay the bills. I went to the lunch area where the union whiners usually ate to wait for the coffee boy. I had to sit down because my leg was killing me. I was told that was someone's seat, and I said I was just going to sit there until the owner came or the coffee boy came. As I proceeded to sit down the shop steward shoved me flying across the room. Things got pretty heated, but not by me, but by those who knew my condition and were standing up for me. If I had listened others I could have had him charged with assault, and he would have been removed from the positions of shop steward and likely had his union membership revoked. I did not choose that option but elected to forgive him instead for various reasons.

Another job years later, I another project in a chemical plant. The project was a "time and materials" job, which to certain union members means "screw around and do next to nothing" which to me means "stealing." I played volleyball with the plant manager and he warned me that they were about to throw our union out. First I told the shop steward, who blew it off despite my warning that the attitude and ethics he was condoning could cost 40 -50 men their jobs in the midst of a recession. He did nothing, so I brought it to my foreman, supervisors, and project managers attention in the site trailer over lunch. Word got back to the shop steward that I had informed management and he brought it to the attention of those who enjoyed doing next to nothing for full pay, or thieves as I see it. I got roasted in the lunch room for that, but I was fine with that, because I would rather be persecuted by their kind than conform to their ways.

Same job, I exercised "the right to refuse" unsafe work when coupled with an alcoholic, while drunk on the job, in an explosive atmosphere which led to more blatant stupidity from the same shop steward. Later the same steward complained I was working too hard, apparently just working is "too hard." I challenged his claim and asked him to have the union representative visit the site. I shared what our shop steward was encouraging and how he was destroying the union and perpetuating the negative stereotypes of the unions and its members. Union rep. stood behind his "buddy" and the thievery continued.

I could share more but I will cut to the prime example of the illegal activities of unions and their strong armed thug tactics. I have a friend who is by far the best builder in the area. He builds great quality homes, pays all his trades union rate or better, pays in 18 days, is very particular of who he hires and their workmanship. We actually use many of the same trades as we refer trades to one another. He was in the middle of building a site of some 20 something homes, and the labourers union decided they were entitled to some of the jobs he, and also some other local builder's jobs they created. So my question to you is, if he is already paying union rate to a non union contractor and the union shows up is that not an infringement of rights, not only to him, but also to the contractor who he is already working with? I would say it is not only an infringement, it is theft and extortion.

So they block the road into the site and don't allow the builder's trades not involved in their dispute on the job site, infringement on trades or not? They delay closings on houses, infringement on home owner's (public) or not? The block off traffic to people who already live in the development, infringement on the public, or not? The come onto his site, which he owns, which is trespassing in the eyes of the law?

I went up to his site before I knew what was going on to see if the plumber is there. They stop me on the end of the street, and ask why I am wanting to drive into the site, like it's any of their business? I don't tell them, but assure them I am not their to work on the houses, and that I have nothing to do with their issue with the builder. They start with suggested threats until I pull my cell phone camera out, then they shut up, and I can't be bother with their nonsense and leave. You think this should be legal?

A couple days later I get a call from a potential customer who wants their basement finished in his site. I explain the situation there but she wants to get things rolling up there. I go up there, and luckily they are all off to the side of the road so I drive in and park in front of the home where I am to measure the basement. They come strolling up and start their interrogations again. I explain the situation but they inform me I can't go into the house. I inquire why if it is private property, and I am not working for the builder. They once again start with the threats but I ignore them and enter the house while threats ensue. One of them decides to shove me, followed by a scrap of 2"X4" thrown at me to narrowly miss. I go about my measurements of the basement while they continue in their tactics. I just advise them that I am recording their antics in case I should need to file charges against them. I finished off my measurement only to have them block the street to keep me indefinitely detained on the property. I call the police to handle the matter, but of course they're union too, so the brothers have to stick together. I ask the officer if they are allowed to keep me there much longer. He informs me they have surpassed what is acceptable by law, but tells me there is little they can do despite they have three cruisers and five officers on site. I ask why that is, and he says he does not want it to turn into mayhem like it did yesterday on the other builder's site. Does any of this sound "legal" to you? I tell the officer that it's fine that I have all day and his supervisor is my buddy since high school and he will surely help me out if I give him a call, and one minute later I am out of there, just like that. What do you think, can we add obstruction of justice ( or whatever you want to call it) to that?

Add to that countless threats to trades, homeowners on the site, property damage, following the trades to their homes, etc. etc. etc.

That said, I'm not against the concept of unions, after all I did get a great apprenticeship and work in two unions with lots of hard working guys who were there for the "right" reasons.
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